16 year old son is mean.

[Fabulousdahlink]

Birthdays christmas etc really important in our home. Son has money from savings and has a pt job. Failed to buy his sister a xmas gift, for my 50th only offered to buy the card whilst expecting 14yr sister to buy the gifts, now discovered he has not bought or paid glft or her birthday on sunday. Fornat is thr same each time...when asked if he has planned money for a gift says yes, sometimes lies and says he has ordered a gift ' but it hasnt arrived' or just plain expects the adults in his life me , dad, granny or aunty to buy a last minute gift so the person doesnt get left out...but he doesnt pay for shop for or pay back the money for the gift.

What do I do ? He knows it is not ok to treat people this way...but it is sfill a pattern. He's been told directly by the adults in his life its not ok. A bar of choc and 59p card from home bargains would be acceltable. He just doesnt give despite always being treated well on his own special days. We are supposed to be going out for dinner for his sisters birthday and I'm so disguted with him I dont want to go. However, that lunishes my daughter and will also hurt her feelings again if I tell her the reason why.

We've told him and given him options ( tell us and you can pay back the cost of the gift etc) but he still persists in not being responsible for his own gift giving to direct family ( sister, mum and dad)
Advice needed please mumsnetters.

Am not loving all the "pander to the princeling" messages on here. Not helpful for your son, certainly not helpful to your daughter. Actually presents do come with expectations, expectations of a meaningful relationship, - that's why we dont just give them to strangers in the streets. Your ds sounds like he's well on his way to being one of those shits who never finds time to buy his wife a card or token gift but expects to have his own special occasions marked (and for her to shop for all his family).

It always astonishes me how much value people put on being given a bit of cardboard and a piece of tat they don't need. And how they judge a person if they don't "get it right". Maybe try not guilt tripping someone (especially a child) into buying stuff in, let's face it, a planet that could do with less consumerism? And maybe let them show their appreciation in their own way, or not at all - and if it's the latter, well to be blunt, suck it up. Some people have real problems

On the plus side he has savings and a part time job at 16. Does he save all he earns or does he spend some, if so on what? Do you give him money, does he save any birthday and xmas money he gets?

Have you sat him down and asked him why he behaves in this way - maybe, for whatever reason he feels strongly that present buying isn't something he should be doing at his age. However much you might disagree with whatever he says, he might just have a fairly principled answer.

He knows he is going to get caught out telling lies about having got something and then it not arriving but at the moment he doesn't have to accept responsibility for that decision because you are bailing him out. When he doesn't buy anything don't pick up the pieces. He then needs to accept whatever bad feeling there is with whomever it affects. It might (after a few Christmas's & b'days) make him take responsibility.

What are his empathy abilities like generally? Some people have a real lack of empathy and as he is still getting the benefit of full birthday and Christmas celebrations he may genuinely not be able to put himself in the shoes of the person he doesn't buy a gift for because he hasn't experienced it himself and is also not feeling the effects of their disappointment all the time you step in.

Might seem like a cop out but buying presents can be really tricky, the not knowing what to buy, not wanting to waste money on something the other person won't like etc etc are all things that could be built up in someones head to make it all just seem too big a task. Does anyone make a list of things they would like or items they regularly use which range in price? This has the potential to take lots of the stress out of present buying and if you haven't already tried that I think it might be worth it at Christmas (too late for this weekend). If you have already tried that or he still doesn't do it that would point more towards the mean spirited (unless he gives you a reason as to why he behaves in this way) rather than any underlying anxiety attached to the whole present buying palaver.

It is of course possible that this is the early signs of a very me, me, me person but he is only 16 and still has a lot of growing up and life learning to do.

Ignore it. And give him the minimum on his occasions - he clearly doesn't care about birthdays, etc. Some people don't.

Ask your daughter if she wants him at the meal and follow her lead.
Don't buy her a present from him. Unless she's about 5 she will know. Then she can decide how she wants to treat him on his birthday etc.

I think you're being very unreasonable.
I don't expect my nearly 16 yo son to spend his own ££ on gifts. I do expect him to choose gifts which I will pay for.
I don't expect him to start funding them for a while yet, not quite sure exactly when. At this stage I'm just teaching him that it is nice to put a bit of thought into giving as it doesn't seem to be something that comes naturally.
If this is his worst trait as a 16yo, he's doing brilliantly!

Where is he getting his money from? Surely if he owes you money for his siblings’ birthday presents, it’s just deducted from his pocket money / allowance? Or does all his money come from a job?

I hate modern consumerism of we all must give gifts.
The boy only has a part time job so not rolling in cash. Stop getting your underage children to buy each other gifts. I got a birthday and Christmas present from my parents up untill I left uni. My sibling didnt then and dont now buy gifts for each other. On Christmas and birthday we focus on time together so meals and being a family.
My other halfs family spend hundreds on random crap at Christmas and then I feel pressured to reciprocate. I think this we must give is a massive issue of modern society.

I also find the whole culture of exchanging presents hard, and it's not OTT in our family. But still it is part of culture, and something people place value on. Also, being mean with money extends to other areas and is awful to live with. If he thinks it's OK to be mean with money he needs to understand it will make people seriously dislike him. So I would be trying to get that through to him - not saying he should spend a lot, but that it's about making people feel cared for.

One of my best presents was just chocolates and a card when I was in hospital after giving birth, from a friend - but the card contained the loveliest message and the chocs were specially chosen based on what she knew I liked. He needs to separate the concept from just being about how much money he gets to keep for himself, and understand it's about making people feel cared for.

Agree with PPs there are so many threads on here from sad mums whose selfish lazy H/P just ignores their birthday or doesn't get them anything at christmas. Again I am not into big presents, but not bothering makes people feel invisible and ignored.

I would want to try to help him not become one of those men. And also help DD understand she doesn't have to tolerate this attitude in a partner.

I never expected any of my kids to buy cards or presents for us or siblings at 16. Perhaps its not because he's mean as such but just thoughtless like most 16 year old boys. They have other things occupying their minds other than birthday or presents. I would remind him about birthdays coming up and if he doesn't but a card etc then on the birthday I would tell him I was disappointed he hadn't bothered to acknowledge it. Hopefully eventually it will sink in that he should try to remember and acknowledge close familys birthdays.

I agree with @recrudescence. Just ignore. My DH and his brother don’t send cards, presents or messages on siblings birthdays although their sisters often remember theirs. They aren’t close but get on perfectly well when they are together. And although DH has never given his sister a birthday gift he did give her a car when she was in need.

I don't think there's anything worse than people gift giving because they feel they have to. I'd always far rather have a genuine thought and appreciation than not. You shouldn't give to receive after all. So I'd stop expecting your son to do the gift giving and take the pressure off him.

Gift giving is not the only way to express appreciation and love of others, he may be doing all sorts of other things to show you that. Is he thoughtful in other ways?

I would totally ignore the present thing (but don't buy for others on his behalf) and try and develop the generous/giving side of his personality by signing him up for encouraging him to do some voluntary activities which could be anything from helping at the local homeless shelter to picking up rubbish on the beach, to helping youngsters on a sports team etc. I have a 16 yr old DD op and I sympathise. It's a phase of life when they can be very inward looking to put it mildly! Mine is just starting to look up and look outwards!

Double check he has actually got money. There is a massive problem with kids of this age and online gambling. That's not just me saying that randomly I work in the finance industry.

Ask your daughter if she wants him at the meal and follow her lead.

Dont try to put a wedge between you children by asking this... If you dd, unprompted by you asks him not to attend then that is different.

It's quite simple to me. He does not have the same values.
Simply disengage. Tell everyone it is for him to buy presents now. If he doesn't, so be it. But it works both ways.

It's the thought that counts. No one would expect him to spend loads but as the op says, even a chocolate bar shows some thought.

I'd remind him that it's important and ask him how he would feel if no one made the effort for him. Then leave him to it.

If he doesn't make the effort then come Christmas day I wouldn't put his presents out. I'd wait for him to see that everyone else has presents but not him. Then, when he realises, I'd have a chat about how it feels then produce his presents. It might do the trick.

14yo is free to buy a present for your DS if she wants to. 16yo is free to not buy a gift for your DD if he doesn't want to. Let them figure out how to balance that.

DD might enjoy the act of giving and not be too bothered about receiving. Maybe a card from DS or a kind word is enough.

Not sure you should be punishing DS for anything - you should continue to set an example of how you consider proper behaviour to be, but in the case of birthday presents it really is more personal than that so I wouldn't be stressing that much about it.

If this is the worst thing your 16yo is doing behaviour wise you've done pretty damn well

YABU to expect a 16 year old boy to care about card giving and presents.
Hmmm, it's not about really caring, is it? Even if he doesn't care, it's about treating his family well and with respect, which is something he should be able to do at 16 years old, especially when he is spoilt on his birthday.

OP, stop this helping him buy presents and offering to buy the gift on his behalf thing. And then seriously limit what you give him for his birthday to maybe one or two presents. Your DD should not be buying him anything. I would leave it at that for a few years and see if over time, he starts to act his age and be a kind adult.

I agree with BarbariansMum . He's already turning into one of those men who think their celebrations are important and worthy of gifts but everyone else is lesser than him. It's not acceptable.
I'd actually micro-manage this until he steps up. I wouldn't pay for gifts from him but I'd arrange to go out shopping with him. Ask him how much he plans to spend. Make sure he brings that amount of money and then make him pay for the gift. If he makes excuses about having ordered online then I'd point out his online gifts have a habit of not arriving hence why you're taking him to a store.

I don't think 'valuing money' or being young is an excuse to not give gifts, which is an important social ritual in most cultures (and, specifically, important in your family). In any case, the gift could be a small token. It's the fact that he doesn't make any gesture at all which seems to bother the OP.

I would actually sit him down and ask him why he doesn't give gifts and explain how you feel. Have a discussion about it and explain why it matters. Meannness is a very off-putting characteristic.

It bothers me that women still primarily carry the burden of gift-buying and -giving in families, among friends, for children or in workplaces. I think it's important that boys also learn the value of these social exchanges.

If he finds it stressful to choose a thoughtful gift he can learn to resort to the usual tokens of flowers, chocolates, gift vouchers etc - and at the very least pick a well-chosen card and write a heartfelt message, to demonstrate that he has put some effort into it!

I'm afraid some people just don't have a generous spirit

Some men. Every example here and in other threads on MN has a million excuses for men ignoring/forgetting family anniversaries and events.

Its not about the "piece of cardboard" its about someone close to you or about whom you care actually making a tiny effort to remember others on their birthdays/special occasions.

All this hand wringing men who simply "can't remember" or who are "overwhelmed" by the enormity of the challenge of buying a birthday card - how many of them miss their favourite team or band or film? Or work meetings? Or forget to buy themselves items they want?

If they can sent a calendar for an event they want to remember, they can set a calendar for family birthdays and stop making bloody excuses. We need to stop making excuses for them.

set a calendar rather!

I'd actually micro-manage this until he steps up

Which reinforces the idea that its the woman's responsibility to manage the process.

Stop buying him stuff. Let him have a birthday with a bar of chocolate as the main present and point out its more than he ever does for anyone else.

I'm really surprised by these replies. When I was a teenager my parents never expected me to pay for any presents out of my own money - they'd have been mortified. Presents were bought on my (and my brother's) behalf.

None of my friends paid out of their own pockets for presents at that age either. Obviously now that I'm a grown adult I happily treat my friends and family, not shelling out at 16 doesn't mean someone's an arsehole.