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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Teen advice makes me worried

295 replies

ChipOnMyOvary · 26/09/2019 01:43

I was reading this advice page for teenagers. AIBU to think it is a bit ott?
I find it a bit like girls are expected to put up with male mores. Am I a modern day Mary Whitehouse, or is this like actual grooming of pre-16 girls?

OP posts:
PeterRouseTheFleshofMankind · 26/09/2019 21:06

@Krisskrosskiss do you really believe that it's OK for 13 year olds to be exposed to information about niche sex acts such as fisting so that they 'have all the info'? Do you think a 13 year old girl can deal with the idea of someone sticking a fist up her anus as part of sex, not only deal with it, but be conditioned to believe that that is normal?

Do you believe that 13 year old girls should be told that they need to 'have a think' about why they don't want to be examined by a male doctor?

Really?

Krisskrosskiss · 26/09/2019 21:08

I mean it's not about idealisation and promoting a certain moral standpoint... it's about keeping kids safe. You cant do that by sticking your head in the sand. Kids have so much access to dangerous false information from such a young age now days... all it takes is one kid of 13 to see some hardcore porn... and then hes saying what hes seen to other kids... and if you havent spoken to them about it... or of it's a taboo to talk about... you are going to leave them at more risk.
So I'm afraid the sensible thing is for sex ed to cover sex acts that teens may come across. And to provide accurate facts about it. So it's not Chinese whispers.
I'm happy for you if you feel your child is totally blissfully ignorant of any of these things... but sadly your child is not the only child in the school.... there are many kids who arent oarented well or who's parents have different ideas... and that's all it takes to put your child at risk too.
I dont understand mumsnet sometimes... you always get threads about the dangers of porn... the way boys pressure girls etc etc... and everyones all like 'oh god what on earth can we do?!'
Well THIS this is what you do. You get in there first with the whole class and you start the conversation with real facts and real explanation of things they might be exposed to

Krisskrosskiss · 26/09/2019 21:12

Yes I really believe 13 year olds should be given info about niche sex acts. I remember being 13 and even back then, 20 years ago, you had boys going on about stuff like bukkake or whatever the hell its called, and sniggering etc.... and as I have stated up thread, when I lost my virginity I was nigh on clueless.... this left with me with LESS boundaries not more.... because I did not really understand what was being asked of me.

PeterRouseTheFleshofMankind · 26/09/2019 21:16

all it takes is one kid of 13 to see some hardcore porn...

Well, according to this info, 12 year old girls are constantly masturbating to porn and it's 'perfectly natural for a girl of your age' so...........

StopThePlanet · 26/09/2019 21:17

How is the site not against your Extreme Publications Act?

Yes sex education is needed but since when did that include fetishes and paraphilas? Some things should be left to the imagination. Do children really need to be clued in to 2 Girls 1 Cup?

Research shows that adults intentionally seeking out or accidentally exposed to extreme porn and fetishes are highly likely to seek them out post initial exposure if they become aroused by what they are exposed to. Eventually they find their desires and ability to perform sexually is diminished when not engaging in the aforementioned - leaving them to seek more dangerous and/or extreme methods in which to derive pleasure.

How can it be safe to actively teach children below the age of consent about these things? What adults do in private is their business as long as it does not violate the other participant(s) rights (consent required).

Undoubtedly some children will already know of these things (fetishes, paraphilias, fisting, felching, etc.) due to lax parental oversight or their home environment or things they encounter on the internet or in the world. Prior to info like the site they would convey these things to other kids likely in hushed tones out of earshot from adults as they are discussing taboo subjects. Normalizing the aforementioned can only be detrimental to children.

Victims of CSA frequently exhibit poor boundary controls or assert no boundaries at all. They can't give informed consent until they traverse from victim to survivor (and still may struggle with asserting boundaries for their own well-being).

As many of 40 percent of children who are sexually abused are abused by older, or more powerful children. (Finkelhor, 2012)

Approximately 20 percent of girls (1 in 5) and 8 percent of boys (1 in 12.5) will be sexually abused before their 18th birthday (Pereda et al, 2009).

Sex Ed for children should be cognizant of their intellectual and emotional capacity not just throwing every adult proclivity at them.

I'm an adult and I would have been happy to go my whole life without knowing anything about coprophilia, which btw, I didn't think about the possibility of its existence until my friend showed me the video clip mentioned above. Title of the actual film? Hungry Bitches, because apparently eating shit and vomiting it into another women's mouth is suuuuper sexy. I know that's graphic and I know it's revolting but this is the disturbing material that they are pointing children to when they tell them about scat.

Get a fucking clue people.

PeterRouseTheFleshofMankind · 26/09/2019 21:20

because I did not really understand what was being asked of me.

What was being asked of you? Fisting? Felching? Scat play? On your first time? At 13?

PeterRouseTheFleshofMankind · 26/09/2019 21:26

Sex Ed for children should be cognizant of their intellectual and emotional capacity not just throwing every adult proclivity at them.

This.

Yes, porn is the problem.

The way to solve that is not to say 'right girls, these are the things you need to be ready for when your boyfriend wants to have sex with you. They are pretty icky, but hey, that's sex for ya - enjoy!'

JadeDragon23 · 26/09/2019 21:29

I’m not all that bothered about facts being available to 13 year olds - even a factual description of something as rank as felching.

It’s the language used that is fucking horrific. The felching description has a light-hearted sentence about being a way to ‘clean up’ which might be messy but sex is anyway!

The madly masturbating-to-porn 12 year old girl and the almost ‘giggly’ description of willies and bits rubbing together and about getting girls turned on so they get ‘nice and wet’.

If that wasn’t written by some filthy fucking paedo I’m a monkeys uncle.
The tone used is sickening.

Datun · 26/09/2019 21:30

I mean it's not about idealisation and promoting a certain moral standpoint... it's about keeping kids safe

In which case the information should reflect what is actually happening, not what a pervy guy thinks happens in pornography.

From the BMJ study into sex amongst youngsters.

Results: Anal heterosex often appeared to be painful, risky and coercive, particularly for women. Interviewees frequently cited pornography as the ‘explanation’ for anal sex, yet their accounts revealed a complex context with availability of pornography being only one element. Other key elements included competition between men; the claim that ‘people must like it if they do it’ (made alongside the seemingly contradictory expectation that it will be painful for women); and, crucially, normalisation of coercion and ‘accidental’ penetration. It seemed that men were expected to persuade or coerce reluctant partners.

Information on anal sex on the back of the study, into what is actually happening to youngsters, not cheerfully including it in a leaflet about fisting, how great pornography is, and being aroused by faecal matter.

Please don't confuse information with advocacy.

JasBBGG · 26/09/2019 21:34

Well I've got to age 39 and not knowing what Arabian Goggles are. WTAF???

I'm all for education and empowerment but who needs to know this??

And on the subject of normalising anal, the last two times I've been in hospital I have oddly ended up next to gay old men having their anus' repaired due to years of bumming - they openly told me this. Funnily enough that's not covered.

Some things on the website are ok but it takes the banter and friend approach too far without actually looking at real issues. The worst section for me was on "secret relationships" nothing about abuse or coercive control.

Krisskrosskiss · 26/09/2019 21:35

"It seemed like men were expected to persuade or coerce reluctant partners"... this is something which needs tackling. I do not see what this attitude has to do with girls being given info about sex acts? But I do see the need to focus more on sex being a mutually enjoyable experience and to foster the attitude in young men of looking for enthusiastic consent not just a lack of 'no, stop'
This is an issue of toxic macho culture though.... it's not going to be prevented by not giving girls information is it?

Datun · 26/09/2019 21:37

This is the man who wrote it btw.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3700556-Safeguarding-in-UK-Schools-new-Statutory-Guidance-existing-classroom-programme-teaching-6yr-olds-to-masturbate

And I do find it odd that people are saying but if the NHS approve, it must be fine. Instead of analysing what has actually been written, and thinking what the fuck are you thinking NHS?!

I believe that's known as an appeal to authority.

Never a good idea when you are talking about safeguarding children. Everyone has the exact same responsibility.

SirVixofVixHall · 26/09/2019 21:37

This is an agenda to sexualise children, and to normalise extremely violent and fetishistic sexual behaviours. We need to look very clearly at who is behind this, and ask ourselves who benefits from children thinking that anal sex, fisting, etc are normal ?
To the pps saying that anal is normal now. No it isn’t, not with my age group.I am 55, I have never been asked for it, my 47 yr old Dh has never done it, neither of us has watched porn. It may be more normal with the under forties. Why could that be ? What does that coincide with ? The huge rise of Pornography. Andrea Dworkin, writing decades ago, could see this coming.

I think of my lovely, romantic daughters going out into this utter cesspit of porn soaked boys and fetishes and I feel complete despair.
That adult men are pushing this into schools, well I wonder why that could be ?

Krisskrosskiss · 26/09/2019 21:48

@SirVixofVixHall can you not read what you've written back and look at the mass of moral judgements and emotive language in ot? And ask yourself does that have any place in sex education? Why are your standards going to be used as everyones standards?
Every generation this happens.
Our grandmother would be appalled at what we got taught and what we get up to in the bedroom...
Doubtless I wont even have heard of some of the stuff my grandkids end up doing....
You can try and think that your standards and yours alone are the truly 'good' ones that everyone should live by. Bit I'm afraid the world will keep changing around you. If you want to believe we are all going to hell and the world is a porno peado paradise or whatever I'll leave you to it...
Personally I think people just change, generations change, what's normal changes....

The only things that I am concerned about are that my children are informed and have the confidence and self esteem to really do what they want or not do what they dont want, exactly whenever they feel ready...and that they expect to be having a mutually enjoyable experience where consent has been enthusiastically given and there is trust and communication.
I do not care what specific sex acts they get up to. Because I'm pretty sure that whatever my 'normal' was probably wont be theres and it's none of my bloody business anyway.

Ereshkigal · 26/09/2019 21:51

Read the study Datun posted a link to. Anal sex is not, for most girls, a "mutually enjoyable experience". It's something boys want them to do.

Ereshkigal · 26/09/2019 21:52

There are any number of people who utterly rely on other peoples naivete.

Absolutely.

titchy · 26/09/2019 21:53

This is an issue of toxic macho culture though.... it's not going to be prevented by not giving girls information is it?

Giving information is 'bodies are not designed to receive anal sex. The tissue is extremely delicate and anal sex can result in lifelong faecal incontinecne. As a result of the increase in violent pornography it has become more common.' Thats informatin . 'Anal needs lots of lube but loads of people think it's great.' Is normalising dressed up as information.

Ereshkigal · 26/09/2019 21:54

And the normalising of anal and other niche sex stuff, the 'negotiating' of sex, the idea that 12 year old girls are constantly masturbating to porn, telling girls that they need to 'have a think' about why they might not be comfortable being examined by a male.

It's all about eroding girls boundaries of what is normal.

It's really quite blatant.

titchy · 26/09/2019 21:55

Our grandmother would be appalled at what we got taught and what we get up to in the bedroom...

Actually anal has been used as a method of contraception since time immemorial...

Krisskrosskiss · 26/09/2019 21:56

People used to say that about oral sex. People used to say that women only did it because they were pressured into it...
And that is so patently not true is it?
I'm not saying I dont think young girls face pressure... but you dont need to demonize a sex act. Its not the sex act that's the problem it's the attitude of young men... it's the culture of competition its misogyny.

Anal sex is a sex act which exists which some people enjoy and some people do not. It's perfectly legitimate to provide information,action on ot during sex education lessons.

Datun · 26/09/2019 21:57

can you not read what you've written back and look at the mass of moral judgements and emotive language in ot? And ask yourself does that have any place in sex education?

Every generation this happens.

kriss

Sexual mores and practices don't just become more and more acceptable, more healthy and enjoyable. Because, er, time.

Anal sex been around since forever. It's nothing new. All fetishes, paraphilias - They're not new. Good lord.

Asking youngsters questions, and giving them an opinion is relatively new, though.

So, when girls say it's often coercive, they don't enjoy it, and yet are pressured from boys and young men because of porn, how does that fit in with your 'women, stop being so old-fashioned' opinion?

Anal heterosex often appeared to be painful, risky and coercive, particularly for women. Interviewees frequently cited pornography as the ‘explanation’ for anal sex, yet their accounts revealed a complex context with availability of pornography being only one element. Other key elements included competition between men; the claim that ‘people must like it if they do it’ (made alongside the seemingly contradictory expectation that it will be painful for women); and, crucially, normalisation of coercion and ‘accidental’ penetration. It seemed that men were expected to persuade or coerce reluctant partners.

Painful, risky, coercive.

It's not something that's going to particularly change with time. It is painful, it is risky, and therefore it's not enjoyable, so will result in coercion.

Krisskrosskiss · 26/09/2019 21:57

*information on it

Datun · 26/09/2019 21:59

People used to say that about oral sex. People used to say that women only did it because they were pressured into it...

Who said that? Oral sex has been a staple of general sex lives since time began. Particularly as it doesn't result in pregnancy.

Ereshkigal · 26/09/2019 21:59

Not everyone has anal sex. It's illegal to have anal sex under 16. Any approach to giving information should make it clear what the very real risks are and focus on telling girls that they can say no, they don't have to "use more lube" and force themselves into it to please a male.

Ereshkigal · 26/09/2019 22:01

Pretending that porn isn't problematic is agenda-driven and wrong.