To be jealous of men :S

[HelpImEnvious]

I’m so jealous of men.. including DH..

They don’t have as much society pressure to be nice and not be themselves

They don’t have so much biological changes just to become a parent

They don’t have to go through labour or pregnancy or the full time job of breastfeeding.. so their bodies don’t take a physical toll and don’t age

Their Careers and lives don’t take s hit when they deliver a baby

They don’t suffer mum guilt if they decide to pursue their lives.. because to them that’s normal.

To them age is grace and there is no biological clock... very carefree

I resent DH sleeping through the night while I have to get up breastfeed..

I love being a mum, always wanted to be, and want more kids, but It comes at such a huge cost that doesn’t seem to affect him as much.

I find myself snapping a lot because I feel annoyed at the changes I had to my social life and my career and my sleep and my overall life. Even though it was my choice.. because I feel it’s what best for my child. But I can’t help feel resentment :S

I thought about this a lot when I emmigrated (to Scandinavia) years ago. It was strange to have such a large number of my male colleagues (I'm male too) disappearing for paternity leave for a few months. It's very common here. It does feel like the career issue is a UK problem (and many other parts of the world of course.) The system here works, and a man is just as much a 'parental leave' risk as a woman. And of course childcare is so heavily subsidized that it's both affordable for all and deeply culturally acceptable to use it to return to your career.

I do accept and acknowledge both my Male Privilege and the damage of the patriarchy though. I do my equal share at home, but I can tell that it still often gets seen as "what a good man" stuff instead of "doing what he should" stuff. And I know, rationally, that the patriarchal ideals are there in me enough that I feel like I'm being a 'good man' for doing what I should anyway. I know it's wrong. I hope it gets weeded out little by little each generation. I have two step daughters. I try to show them the minimum they should accept from a partner. My partner agonizes over when to stop telling them that "mummy and daddy just weren't good as partners and work better as friends" and come clean with "daddy did fuck all around the house and no woman should have to put up with that."

Pregnancy and childbirth... I mean, I watched my partner hobbling around in pain for last couple of months. I watched the delivery at the business end (it was news to me that they ask the mum to control the last few pushes instead of just trying to pop the baby out as fast as possible..) and thought it looked the most agaonising thing I could imagine. But there's a little shread of jealousy. I know not all women enjoy pregnancy, it's just torture for some. Not my partner. She loved it. She was the absolute hallmark image of the serene mum sitting there at night, hand on belly, glowing with contentment at the miracle growing inside her. She genuinely pitied that I could never know that joy.
It is obviously, flat-out, and undeniably easier to not be the one carrying, growing, delivering and nurturing the child. But I have that little itch of "I can just never choose to experience this."

She got a heel spur and tennis elbow in the weeks after the birth. And the milk production didn't work out so baby's been combo-fed. So regardless of the fact I'm the one going to work I'm also the one getting up several times at night, and pacing around in the dark trying to get her to settle without waking her sisters up. But I appreciate that generally a breastfeeding mother can't really delegate here.

Orgasms.. I think it's creepy for a man to go into too much detail here on this site, but I'll say simply - my partner says she experiences it through her entire body, for sometimes literally minutes. More than once if she chooses. I experience it in one place. For a few seconds. Once. I realise that women's bodies vary wildly in this but I definitely don't feel like I've got the better end of the deal!

I think I was lucky with vaguely hippy parents that I didn't get too much of the 'man up' stuff at home. I did at school from my peers and the damage is there. I do get thoughts of "i need to suppress this emotional weakness" but I am lucky that my parents were good enough at discussing feelings that I can rationalize away thoughts like that for what they are.

So uh... I think men have it easier. I acknowledge it fully. I'm still a little jealous of a couple of things anyway.

I actually found having short haircut much more faff than long hair.

as it socially more than acceptable to wear short hair for a woman, I'd say it's either a personal choice or a self-inflicted pressure!
Hear, hear!

Actually DH got a load of criticism from male colleagues for being upfront about needing to pick up DS -- the details are too depressing to recall, but centred around how he must be henpecked/pussywhipped if his wife couldn't do the child minder run.

Yes and DH got berated by his own mother that he wasn’t man enough- like his dad, for listening to his wife about going for fertility treatment .

You get two types. Those that hail them as heroes and those that berate them.

I did feel sorry for myself though that his mum said that. Because it made it harder for him to support me in my equality battle. It’s not like anyone had a stake in that battle more than me.

I didn’t feel sorry for him that his mum called him less of a man for it.. because I think it’s hard to take someone like that seriously when it’s clearly against logic and so o don’t see it affecting their self esteem.

I think I need to work on my empathy towards men. But it’s because I see our struggles as women far more defining. I guess I tend to minimise what they go through because it’s a small speck in what I feel WE go through.

But maybe I’m Generalizing

Oh, and one thing I think is totally unfair - the amount of hormones my partner has been subjected to. Birth control, additional estrogen while pregnant due to premature birth risk.. it screws with her totally and seems a huge injustice.

I'll be getting snipped imminently.

I think boys and girls are equally pressured to be nice and that's a good thing. Why would you not encourage everyone to be nice? Do you mean we should encourage girls to be nasty?
I loved being pregnant and giving birth and I think lots of men would love to experience that.
I got to give up work for a few years and I now get to work part time following the birth of my children. My poor husband has had to work full time all the way though and I am very grateful to him that he does that for us.
I got to breastfeed all my children which was something my husband can never experience.
I think men are justified in being jealous of women too.
Mumsnet can be so anti men.

Totally agree with this. It's all about perspective

Honestly, I'menvious, do what you like, but personally I don't think that perceiving every aspect of your life as outside your control is not likely to be contributing to your happiness.

You have a choice between wearing your hair long or short. In your view, long hair looks more attractive, but it is also more of a faff. So make your decision according to whichever is more important to you. It's a personal choice, even if it is made in a social context. Lots of women make the choice to have short hair, and if you choose the same you're not going to get stared at in the street.

Same with putting your child in nursery - if you feel that you can't put your toddler in nursery as you'll be too worried about what happens to them there - fine. Maybe you're right that as a woman you have been socialised to be more anxious about your child than the average man. But even if so, at the end of the day, you and your DH still have the same decision to make about whether or not to put your child in nursery. Nothing about being a woman forces you to say that your toddler can't go to nursery.

Sorry, there was a double negative in my first sentence. I mean perceiving every aspect of your life as outside your control is not likely to be contributing to your happiness.

Men have life so much easier but I wouldn't want to be one.

Also, I'm sorry for those who have debilitating periods etc but it hasn't been a huge problem in my life. I suffer badly with my teeth, and have endured pain and expense as a result. The teeth thing is much worse than the period thing.

Babies. Yup, nightmare. But women want them. They beg and plead with their partners to have more, the threads are on here daily. One of my closest friends has two kids and can barely manage to brush her teeth because of the pressure of family life. She is on anti depressants because of this, and also desperately wants a third child.

So much of the stress we're under is 'opt in'. I'd like to see more women opting out, opting out of being default housekeeper, family organiser, school gate diplomat, granny appeaser, Christmas fairy, etc etc.

Men would have to step up, and stuff that doesn't really matter would just have to bloody slide. I steel myself every year for watching my lovely in laws open their basic and workmanlike presents from us but I am simply fucked if I'm taking on responsibility for changing it. Be brave.

The teeth thing is much worse than the period thing.

you will never win an argument when you try to make things like that a competition.

I don't agree that men have life so much easier. Some do, some make it easier because they found a partner who is happy to take the slack, but when I look at both my son and daughter, I cannot honestly say that my son will have it easier. I do not believe that for a second.

NewLevelsOfTiredness

Thanks for what you wrote. Going to read it a few times. You sound very understanding.

Really I think I’m just pathetically needing my husband to acknowledge he has the better end of the deal and that I deserve a trophy and then I will chill out.

I think womanhood is under appreciated.

I enjoy pregnancy and breastfeeding but it does come at a huge cost and should be factored in. I don’t feel it is factored in as much by society. Because “it’s a choice” “you don’t need to have children”.

I want to have children. I want to be a good parent. Just like any man does. But I want to limit the impact it has on my life... and I don’t feel in a strong position in life to be fighting for that while I’m sleepless and knackered and pregnant..

Stepping up in terms of housework and whatever doesn’t seem to cut it for me :S. I don’t know why.

I need an acknowledgement that his life is still relatively intact, while mine isn’t.. and for that I deserve to be compensated and cut a lot of slack. And supported on a human level.

There I said it.. I do think I’m vulnerable. More than he is. And I don’t think it’s a “choice” completely. If it were up to him I’m aware he would prefer I put my child in childcare and get on with my career and live life as 50/50 partners. But it doesn’t make me happy... I want to follow guidelines and know I tried my best as a mother and that includes breastfeeding which studies show takes as much time as a full time job and also.... take a toll on the body. But it’s only worth it if I’m supported.

I sound very self centred reading back what I wrote. Happy to be challenged. I just don’t want to lie about how I feel.

I feel vulnerable due to biology. Not due to making a “stupid choice”. And I just feel that pretending otherwise is annoying me.

I completely understand the need for your husband to acknowledge the challenges you face and the sacrifices you are making.

On breastfeeding, I have continued to do this since going back to work. I feed our daughter first thing in the morning, when I get home from work before her bed and at least a couple of times overnight (sigh). She drinks formula in the daytime but I think that probably two thirds at least of her milk is from me. Not saying you have to go back to work if it's not right for you, just saying that it is possible with a job.

HelpImEnvious

you chose not to get on with your career - it's great you have the choice.

Does your partner have the same choice? Would you honestly leave your child with him and go back to work full time?

If you both wanted to become a stay at home parent, would it be an equal decision?

On another note, well yes, breastfeeding is best for baby but many babies are bottle fed for all sort of reasons and they are absolutely fine. It might be a life and death issue in developing countries, in the Western ones, your baby will be fine if you don't breastfeed. Truly, never beat yourself up about it.
When they start reception, no one has any clue or way to know if a baby was breastfed and for how long. It makes no difference.

FrauHaribo

Does your partner have the same choice? Would you honestly leave your child with him and go back to work full time?

He didn’t need to recover from birth. And the mental impact it has.

He doesn’t have breasts to feed the baby.

It just won’t make sense.

I didn’t make a “choice” to go on maternity leave.. it was something that needed to happen.

And then naturally what followed is that I trust myself more with the kids than I trust him to know their needs.

And my career has already been hit, while I was pregnant and on maternity so becoming the primacy financer of the family wasn’t going to be fair on anyone.

Me and him aren’t equal in terms of parenting simply because of biology and because of naturally what follows.

So no I wouldn’t see it as a wise choice for him to be SAHD.. when the children are too young.

When the children are older, say 2 and over, then yes.. but by the time it just doesn’t make sense. I need time to recover my career...

I do work part time from home. But it’s not within the scope of my career. Because it wasn’t so family friendly.

About breastfeeding, I’m aware of what you are saying. I think every mother tries with what she feels is her best. I breastfed because I felt it was my best. Doesn’t mean everyone else has to. But I don’t want to compromise something I believe is best for my child.. I also suffered postnatal anxiety and breastfeeding helped me immensely. I do not want to seperate from a baby before the age of 1. And honestly after the age of 1, the cost of childcare wasn’t worth it for our family and so... one of us had to compromise and with all what was happening subsequent months it made sense for the well-being of our family that I do so.

It’s not a “choice” with equal benefits and consequences.

If my DH staying home was going to have the same benefits and consequences for our family then yes I would have encouraged it. But it’s not the case.

*I think I need to work on my empathy towards men. But it’s because I see our struggles as women far more defining. I guess I tend to minimise what they go through because it’s a small speck in what I feel WE go through.

But maybe I’m Generalizing*

Yes, you are generalizing and massively minimizing. if you really want to be more empathetic then listen to the posters on here who are explaining the issues men face and maybe educate yourself more about them. Also, stop feeling sorry for yourself. You live in a world where you are able to make these choices, a lot of women and men don't have that option.

About breastfeeding, I’m aware of what you are saying. I think every mother tries with what she feels is her best. I breastfed because I felt it was my best. Doesn’t mean everyone else has to. But I don’t want to compromise something I believe is best for my child.

Ok fair enough but that was still YOUR choice. Again, you could have chosen to bottle feed so you DH could have stayed at home and you gone back to work but you DECIDED not to do that so how is holding resentment and jealousy towards men fair?

is that I trust myself more with the kids than I trust him to know their needs.

Well, you clearly have trust issues with your DH and you should work on them. You cant get angry and claim resentment/jealously at how "perfect" your DH's life is when you are the one making it that way. Be honest, you didn't want him to be the primary carer did you?

Self made hell...

GreytExpectations

You sound triggered.

But does the fact that it was a 'choice' invalidate the OP's need for appreciation? I don't think so.

I think if a woman carries and delivers your child and then as a couple you determine that the most logical 'choice' means sacrifices on her part, it's quite ok to show that you really appreciate the personal cost of that choice.

Don't get me wrong, your choices are perfectly valid and commendable.
They are still very much A CHOICE for the most part.

Of course you needed maternity leave, but you don't need a full year - your partner can take over.

I trust myself more with the kids than I trust him to know their needs.
there you go, this is what I struggle with. You can't push a father away and then complain that men have it easier.
There are many women like you, and many fathers who would love nothing more than staying home with their young children.

I do not want to seperate from a baby before the age of 1.
but it's fine for a dad to separate?

You just can't blame men to have it easier when you base this on very personal decisions. I think that being able to stay home with your baby is the easiest path to be honest, and I am grateful I could do it. Other mothers preferred to go back to work at 3 months, and having a husband home make it easier for them.

*It’s not a “choice” with equal benefits and consequences.

If my DH staying home was going to have the same benefits and consequences for our family then yes I would have encouraged it. But it’s not the case.*

And why is that? You really can't see how this situation that you claim to create resentment is all self made by choices you didn't have to make? You are suggesting that as a man your husband wouldn't be as good as a primary caregiver as you, a woman. Really the issue of sexism, patriarchal society, and unfair gender norms are actually because of people like you. Oh the irony.

On the other hand, they never get to carry a child or breastfeed. My 6 month old looks at me like I’m her world... doesn’t look at daddy like that.

I wouldn’t trade it for being a bloke.

Ps- i also try to do the best for my kids and feel no “mum” guilt whatsoever if I do something for me. I put them first, but it does benefit them to have happy, healthy parents with balance in their lives. I don’t get mum guilt at all.

No one can make you feel less without your permission.

You sound triggered

Really? Nope, I'm actually engaging in a discussion and giving my opinions. You sound like you aren't capable of discussing things with people who disagree with you.

OP, I have said nothing different to @FrauHaribo but yet you are goading me. Why is that?

maybe because you write things better than I am GreytExpectations but I totally agree with you.

I doubt it! but Thank you @FrauHaribo :D

I consider myself feminist but I do get a little irked with mindsets like those displayed on this thread, because they just make the issue so much worse.