Cultural appropriation

[Newbiemumsy66]

So this is a term which seems to be used a lot more these day (to my knowledge). I am a white woman and before I start, I am genuinely interested in the definition and especially hearing from those who feel their culture is appropriated.

My understanding is that it is deemed offensive when people (especially white people as we are/were generally an oppressive bunch) steal, wear, eat, cook elements from different cultures. I understand that it is often the case that these things are done disrespectfully, which of course is totally wrong. However, why isn’t it ok for a white woman to wear corn rows because she really likes the style for example? Surely doing something like that shows respect for another culture and shows that it’s a good thing to embrace our differences. Also why is it then not offensive for black people to straighten their hair such as their European counterparts natural hair? Surely everything is appropriated from everywhere in one way or another - it’s a positive step forward for inclusivity and to embrace one another’s differences in a good way. Surely by keeping these traditions within specific races only breeds further segregation?

Apologies if my post is tone deaf or not worded particularly sensitively, but it is just something that I feel I need educating on if my opinion comes from a place of privilege and is ill informed. I mean no offence, so please don’t reply with hate, if I’m wrong tell me why.

OP read 'Why I'm No Longer Talking To White People About Race'

I strongly second that recommendation but since the OP lit the fire and buggered off I suspect they won't be taking it up.

@joyfulhippolady

Please explain why you feel people disagreeing with you on a message board is a form of “condemnation” comparable to the condemnation that women with afro textured hair have traditionally suffered.

I don’t, because I never said any of those things. But you obviously do because you are the one who has come up with that weird ass comparison.

So should white people basically just stick to wearing and enjoying things from their own culture then to avoid offence?

I see it as the opposite of 'cultural appropriation' - it's 'cultural dilution' if anything. As people from a dominant culture become more aware of sub-cultures and admire aspects of them, barriers break down. If (per example quoted above) in white culture big butts have traditionally not been considered attractive, what is so awful about that bias being broken down?

It's a way of 'getting used to difference'.

The majority of white people I know with dreads and cornrows are hippies and pagans, derived from Celtic culture.

I also have a cousin who grew up in the West Indies. She is white, but lived in Jamaica from being a few months old to her mid twenties. All her roots are there. She cornrows her very thick, curly hair in hot weather - how is this not part of her culture? (Her dad and mine were cousins, their family was deported to Jamaica about 400 years ago, some have no alternative culture, they are not Irish anymore! My cousin was only born in the UK while her dad was on a secondment here, her parents were never permanent residents here)..

@Juells
I agree on the big butts things. For decades we’ve been fighting the skinny blue eyed blonde beauty standard that has reined supreme. So I think that big butts/curvier body type that occurs across all ethnicities (albeit in different frequencies) along with the natural hair movement is a sign of society progressing to be more inclusive in beauty standards. I dont see it as CA either. Seeing it as CA implies this is somehow wrong and harms us....where I see nothing but benefit to finally have features that ARE considered beautiful by mainstream and not as a fetish or due to exoticism.

Personally big bums being in fashion is good for me. I have a big bum.

However, I grew up in a family where it was always commented on as the rest of the women are tiny. I take after my dads side. I can see the side that pisses people off a bit.

But also think overall it's a good thing. What concerns me most about it all though is the surgery aspect.

People inflating themselves being seen as an ideal. Take anna from love island. Celebrated that they finally has a curvy girl. They didnt. They has a girl who had extensive surgery to get the effect. How is that different to the usually type in there thata complained about. Thin women with their boobs done?

While ita good different body shapes are 'popular' I think this trend can be as damaging as people regard the pressure to have boob jobs.

Yeah cosmetic surgery is horribly abused imho.
It’s great for people born with deformities or those in accidents that scar them or rebuilding boobs after a mastectomy.

But the industry just preys on women’s (and to smaller extent men’s) insecurities.

I too get angry when I see people held up as role models or matching the ideal when they are so plastic you could stick a wick in them and have a candle. That sends the wrong message to young people that you have to have surgery to even be ideal. That it’s unattainable with your natural assets. It’s depressing.

@bikerunski
Your Jamaican friend is from a culture that wears cornrows, so of course she should be able to wear them without condemnation.

Your example is similar to many others because the problem with policing CA in random individuals is that people rely on their own stereotypes and bias in regards to what a person from that culture looks like.

It’s honestly a form of racial profiling. She doesn’t “look” Jamaican because the racial profile says Jamaicans are black Rastafarians. You don’t “look” Chinese because you’re not Asian. You don’t “look” English because you’re black or Indian or Arab. It is harmful because it others whoever is of that culture but is then made to feel that they don’t because they are pulled up on what they wear, how they speak, the things they do, etc.

We can somewhat police CA in public personalities like celebrities and politicians because their entire life is readily available via google. That is as far as CA should go imho. Like my example earlier of Ariana Grande blackfishing. If I did not know that she was raised in an all white, rich, gated community in Florida to white professional parents and did not have a time series evidence of her deliberately changing her dress, accent and skin tone as an adult, I wouldn’t have a leg to stand on.

If she were a random person I met, I would have to stop and think...well maybe she was adopted by a black family or is mixed race white passing and was raised in a black neighbourhood. Some people are...my cousin is white passing, it happens. So I’d not jump to conclusions and live & let live.

@DoctorAllcome excellent post. And really says all I was trying to say.

I dont look like I come from any of the cultures I was brought up in. Some people assume I dye my hair black. Apparant to make myself look more exotic or trying to appear 'Asian'. I am not my grandfather is indian. I am jot trying to appear more Indian. I am just me.

You come into my house and I have norse items from my dad family. Not to be 'trendy' because that's their culture.

I also have a shillelagh along side them that my nan bought me.

At an individual level its very difficult to say its CA, unless you know someone and their back ground quite well.

I haven’t buggered off. I’m just taking it all in really! I certainly didn’t expect the volume of replies, but understandably it’s a very emotive subject. I am the first to admit I am ignorant and naive to the subject, despite discussing with friends who are black and Indian when something is reported on (such as the Kardashians). Their personal take on the matter is they aren’t offended unless it involves mocking cultures ( such as using traditional dress for Halloween or blackface etc) one friend said they think imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. So my post was to get a broader take on the issue, as it is clearly a big issue. I’m grateful for all of the responses and most are very informative and polite. Some not so much..
I try hard in my life never to intentionally offend anyone so anyone who has taken offence to me posing the question, I feel sorry for you and hope you are able to let go of some of the hatred you are holding on to. Surely any opportunity to educate people should be seen as a positive when approached in the right way. I am white and come from a place of privilege I am fully aware of that, however I am still a woman and have experienced prejudice and unfair treatment at work, sexual assault and have recently been forced out of my job due to pregnancy. So whilst I am certainly not comparing my experiences in terms of the racism that exists I can empathise what it feels like to be segregated due to something (my gender) which I have no control of. If I ever get the chance to explain to a man how that feels, or a man took the trouble to ask, I’ll jump at the chance and do so in the most polite and informative way possible (one less opportunity to refer to women as hysterical etc).

I’ll probably be shot down for this... but in my life I have never ever knowingly acted in a racist or prejudice way. Someone’s race genuinely means nothing to me, as much as someone who has freckles or blue eyes or brown hair. What upsets me is that I, as a white person, am automatically assumed to be racist as a result of my ancestors behaviour or even the behaviour of a minority of white people today. I think in an ideal world it would be great if everyone could let go of any preconceptions ( I know I live in a fairy world) as some minorties opinions of the white and west almost builds a wall which is surely counterproductive?

The likes of Tony Singh and Hardeep Singh Kholi celebrating both their cutlures by wearing kilts and turbans is a glorious thing to most Scots, as is men of any origin wearing a kilt at a wedding. No-one I've ever known has been offended by that. The Islamic tartan seems to have gone down well too.

What I personally find offensive, is the royal family. You never see them dress up as pearly kings in London, or see Camilla in a Welsh hat and shawl when they visit Wales, but for some unfathomable reason they seem to think it's acceptable to don national costume when visiting Scotland. It's beyond patronising.

This family is only on the throne because of the failed Jacobite Rebellion, following which the Highland Dress Act was updated to have all the clothing worn by highland males banned. People were imprisoned for dressing according to their own culture, and here are the victors' descendants dressing up in it to an extent that no-one else does, and looking like a bunch of mocking pricks with zero self-awareness.

Here are some Scots and the royals - I'm pretty sure which ones aren't cultural appropriation.

@thefairyfellersmasterstroke

It’s not CA because Elizabeth II is a legitimate and direct descendent of Scottish King James VI/I via his eldest daughter Elizabeth,1596-1662.

The Jacobite rebellion was because of disagreement after Charles II death with no legitimate issue as to whether the descendants of Charles II’s sister Mary took precedence over their little brother James VII/II. James VII/II only got the throne because Mary died before Charles II. But James VII/II son, James Francis who started the Jacobite rebellions wanted to claim it for himself because Mary’s eldest child was a GIRL! But, he lost the pissing match and the throne went to Anne, then her sister Mary II, then their little brother William III/II. James Francis son, Bonnie Prince Charlie led a second Jacobite rebellion in 1743 which resulted in the clearances and tartan laws...etc.

After William III/II died with no legitimate heirs, precedence defaulted back to James VI/I and the descendent of his oldest child, Elizabeth. Her great grandson was George I who took the throne and from whom Elizabeth II is descended via Queen Victoria.

I usually don't get offended by CA, but as a Scandinavian, it is a bit hard to keep a straight face reg. the way Scandinavian culture is depicted in Hollywood. Like "Midsommer" where new rituals are invented. "The Danish Girl" and "Vikings" where suddenly Denmark has mountains. "Vikings" claiming that Thor the God of War is a blacksmith. "Hammering on his anvil". It is a Warhammer! In avengers Heimdal is black and Sif, who is known as "the golden haired" because her hair is actually made of gold, is played by an actress with black hair and Sif is No longer married to Thor. (Whose name is pronounced "Tor". Like the start of the name "Thomas".)

What I personally find offensive, is the royal family. You never see them dress up as pearly kings in London, or see Camilla in a Welsh hat and shawl when they visit Wales, but for some unfathomable reason they seem to think it's acceptable to don national costume when visiting Scotland.

In modern times, the kilt is a fashionable component of formal wear for men in Scotland, whereas the Welsh hat and shawl are only really ever worn by little girls on St David's Day. The two types of clothing are not even remotely comparable.

Wasn’t the queen mother Scottish?

Their personal take on the matter is they aren’t offended unless it involves mocking cultures ( such as using traditional dress for Halloween or blackface etc) one friend said they think imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

But why is traditional dress or black face paint automatically considered as mocking cultures? Surely it's context - a person can mock cultures without these things and equally they could be using them to celebrate these cultures - imitating them as flattery, as you say

“But why is traditional dress or black face paint automatically considered as mocking cultures? Surely it's context - a person can mock cultures without these things and equally they could be using them to celebrate these cultures - imitating them as flattery, as you say“

For Halloween? Think about it! It’s not celebrating its “fancy dress” a bit insensitive don’t you think?

Tiltheendoftheline I don't look like any of the culture I was brought up in. Some people assume I dye my hair black. Apparent to make myself look more exotic or appear Asian

I hear you. I get similar ignorant remarks. Particularly offensive are the ones that suggest I got plastic surgery to give me bigger cheekbones or "slanty eyes". I can't even buy sunglasses here that fit. Yet if I wear mixed race black, no-one would dare say it. And its considered perfectly acceptable to adopt dress or style from any other culture than black. I don't think I would be tolerated if I was to complain that drawing in wing tips on your eyelids (not that I have any eyelids to draw on myself!) was "cultural appropriation" in the most offensive way of mimicking north Asian people.

Also hate that I look white (mostly) so I am regarded as a white person, as if people with white skin are all some enormous tribe from the same racial background. No, race also confers different features as well as skin colour...but people will actually argue to my face about it!

Mumminmum the pronunciation of "Thor" actually depended on local pronunciation. Old Norse definitely did have a "th" voiced fricative and modern Icelandic retains this. In some areas it would been pronounced "Tor" at some points, in others "Thor" and in some more "Thirrrr". Have fun counting the number of Thor inspired placenames in the UK!

My Irish descent mum wore salwar kameez all the time. She had kidney disease and she found that this style of clothing camouflaged the visible manifestations elegantly and she just loved them. We have dark colouring too (black Irish as someone mentioned above) so they suited her very well too without looking too odd. We actually felt closer to Indian culture growing up than to Anglo culture - similar struggles for independence, music, art etc.

There was a girl in America who saw a dress she particularly liked and decided to wear it to her prom. It was a traditional Chinese garment. When she did, the usual social justice warriors sparked an outcry about cultural appropriation. All of those ranting on Twitter were white. When some actual Chinese people were asked for their views, they actually said that they were flattered that this girl found their traditional clothing to be beautiful.

Taking offence on behalf of someone else is incredibly patronising. It implies that the minority in question isn't capable of standing up for themselves if they want to and need some white person to do it for them.

QualCheckBot are you Scandinavian? If not, I don't think you should be telling a Scandinavian how to promounce the Scandinavian name of a Scandinavian god!

I completely agree with you Mumminmum it's really annoying how it's ok to CA Scandinavian culture (hygge, "Scandi" clothes, furniture, Christmas de orations, food etc). Is that because we're white? Or be because we're not oppressed?

I remember the woman in the Chinese dress. Of course if it was a man in a Chinese dress there would have been no issue. Funny huh? Although she could well have had Chinese ancestry (like the little blonde blue eyed kid in DS class whose mum was half Chinese).

I think I just mentioned I had a discussion with friends who were black and Indian. I didn’t say “oh look at me I have black friends” but thanks for your useful input. The context of me mentioning I had black friends was that they were not offended by CA, I know it’s a bigger issue so I was looking to get a broader feel for the roots of the issues and why they come about. Stop being a racist bigot and painting me with the same brush as other people you may have come into contact with.