Cultural appropriation

[Newbiemumsy66]

So this is a term which seems to be used a lot more these day (to my knowledge). I am a white woman and before I start, I am genuinely interested in the definition and especially hearing from those who feel their culture is appropriated.

My understanding is that it is deemed offensive when people (especially white people as we are/were generally an oppressive bunch) steal, wear, eat, cook elements from different cultures. I understand that it is often the case that these things are done disrespectfully, which of course is totally wrong. However, why isn’t it ok for a white woman to wear corn rows because she really likes the style for example? Surely doing something like that shows respect for another culture and shows that it’s a good thing to embrace our differences. Also why is it then not offensive for black people to straighten their hair such as their European counterparts natural hair? Surely everything is appropriated from everywhere in one way or another - it’s a positive step forward for inclusivity and to embrace one another’s differences in a good way. Surely by keeping these traditions within specific races only breeds further segregation?

Apologies if my post is tone deaf or not worded particularly sensitively, but it is just something that I feel I need educating on if my opinion comes from a place of privilege and is ill informed. I mean no offence, so please don’t reply with hate, if I’m wrong tell me why.

I don't think people are being critical of not knowing your culture autumn I'm not following.

My point was that as a pre-teen/teen we wore stuff because we thought it was cool but had zero understanding of the significance. As adults, we've grown up and wouldn't do that now because we've found out more and to do so would be insensitive.

Sweet I agree with you. It's about context.

Lola I am constantly criticised for not knowing my parents culture.

What I'm saying is this

Using the example of the bindi

You're saying people shouldn't wear it without understanding it

I'm saying, it's fine to do that

I'm also saying it's fine to wear a sari regardless of nationality or ethnicity

If that's what you feel like wearing today, wear it. No worries.

The whole "but how can people wear it without knowing something about it" becomes a joke when it's okay for me to wear it because of my parents or my skin colour, but I too know nothing about it.

All this does is put people in tiny boxes where others decide what "their" culture is.

This microanalysis of behaviour- did it start online? It's incredibly damaging.

I have lost count of the number of people who have criticised me for not knowing what they call my culture. It is made much worse by judging who can and can't wear a sari.

OP, any thoughts?

"Now that we're back in England, if I chose to wear that same sari as a costume for fancy dress, for example...that's the difference."

That's just racist, xenophobic etc

It's not CA. In fact it sounds like the opposite.

I get pissed off by actors getting awards for pretending to be disabled. Like there aren't plenty of people who are already disabled and quite capable of limping around onstage or in front of a camera - you don't need Daniel Day Lewis if it's about the story rather than the 'oh, look, he's really convincing!' or anybody else to fumble around whilst wearing sunglasses when giving an actor who is blind an audio script would be perfect (and wouldn't mean that blind actor is merely a walk on part, rather than being given a speaking part).

If people are criticising for not knowing your parents culture then that's separate from whether people should be able to pretend there's no history of discrimination on things and act accordingly.

I think people have become aware that there's some double standards going on where an item of clothing or a hairstyle on a person from a culture has been marginalised and been a source of discrimination, but then when someone from a dominant culture decides it's cool or unique or its just what they fancy wearing then some how that's fine and it gets the approval stamp from the dominant culture.

As society becomes more and more tolerant and hopefully discrimination on things decreases then more and more things will open up, but until then it doesn't take much to be sensitive.

For example, how many white British people would honestly wake up one morning and decide they just happen to want to wear a sari? I'm guessing almost none. So those who do aren't doing it because it's just a piece of clothing. They're doing it to make a statement.

It would be like me going to Africa and buying myself some tribal clothing and then wearing it around a local city because I think it looks cool when actually there's history to that clothing that I don't appreciate and that's not my culture to take for the sake of vanity and looking cool

Lola "For example, how many white British people would honestly wake up one morning and decide they just happen to want to wear a sari?"

I can point to a few in my friends. One because she loves the style and will probably be given mum's best.

Another two because they have family links - proper family links, they visit family in India, every year. But they are white. So their sari, or sari dresses - another item admired by mum - aren't wearable here. It's a pity. They do wear them out occasionally but usually with my mum or a relative in a sari because then they feel insured a bit against the comments.

The fact that people that criticise me is linked I think. All this "be aware of what I think is your heritage" is very similar thinking. It's just deciding to put people in a box based on certain factors.

Do people object to kimonos btw? I have a lovely one that I got in the sale but for now, will only wear at home.

We had a little boy in nursery who was very fair - blonde and blue eyed. Every international dress up day (wear the clothes of your country of origin- it was a pretty international school) he wore a traditional Chinese silk outfit and we assumed he just liked it.

Then his mum came in to pick him up one day (dad usually did the school run). She was half Chinese (but looked fully Chinese) so it made sense.

@MullinerSpec
“Would that not p*ss you off.”
No. No it would not.
I think it’s great that instead of white culture being stuffed down our throats, they are being open minded and tolerant enough to want to try and in some cases prefer our cultural ways.

@PooWillyBumBum

Half Algerian half English here, I never fit in wherever I go! Too white for the n.Africans too foreign for the English!

I still think it’s odd to live your life like that, worrying about causing offence instead of just wearing hairstyles and clothes that you like. I do believe in being sensitive to the cultural significance of these things but I wouldn’t dream of telling anybody they couldn’t wear something just because they’re not from that culture. More often than not they don’t mean any harm by it - in fact, just the opposite.

@Mini2017 wow don’t know why you’re being so hostile, I didn’t say anything about cornrows either. I’d also like my daughter to learn all about her heritage and the struggles her ancestors have /still go through.
My point was more towards how mixed race people go about CA as some may not look like the race they are, eg my friend is half Indian but she looks white British. She likes henna, loves to cool Indian food (authentic family recipies too) dresses in saris, loads more I cant be bothered to list haha, my point is she doesn’t “look” Indian so could be accused of cultural appropriation when she shouldn’t be.
I don’t understand the “my daughter will be more African” it’s not some sort of competition and you come across as very bitter

Re the point you make about the offence being at the difference in treatment is that not just down to those things being outside of the cultural norm for that country?

It can be, however, how are groups of people who have been in a culture for centuries outside of the norm? Also, your example is flawed. You chose to get tattoos knowing the repercussions and that it was frowned upon in your culture. I don’t agree with that and think having tattoos doesn’t stop you from being able to do a job and it shouldn’t stop you being able to get a job either (unless they say or suggest something highly offensive ). Black people don’t get to choose how their hair comes out or where they are born.

In the US and in the U.K. this is still an issue.

The US military only changed their grooming and appearance regulations to allow black women to wear their hair in a natural state in 2017.

www.vogue.com/projects/13535484/army-ban-on-dreadlocks-black-servicewomen-military-natural-hair-portraits-twists-braids-afros/

California and New York were the first and second states in the US, this year, banning hair discrimination against Black people. 2 states (48 more to go) made a law to stop discrimination against black people for them to be able to wear their hair in its natural state at work and school.

eu.usatoday.com/story/news/2019/08/13/ending-hair-discrimination-job-law-new-york/1999932001/

In the U.K., there is still a call to end discrimination against black people for their hair.

www.itv.com/news/2019-09-15/calls-to-ban-hair-discrimination-on-world-afro-day/

Clothes are imho a different thing if they are inspired by culture. Wearing a national dress of someone else (for attention) might nit be ok at all, but lots of designers do get inspiration from their or other cultures.
I have a top with native american's motives. I love it for the colours and patterns. Same for my kaftan for home and a african motive dress. I love the colours and the comfort of the latter ones.
I also have 20's, summer of love etc patterned clothes.
When it comes to clothes, I draw line at full on traditional national or ethnical clothes.

As a black woman in the uk I don’t care about hair styles or clothing as long as you’re not monetizing from another culture.I understand why it’s upsetting for black Americans cos they were not not allowed to get jobs with their Afro hair and their styling, and seeing Kim and other white models get paid to model those styles is CA.
As for the those saying white women also have big bums, that’s clearly a lie or you are blind not to see the difference,black women have big bums with a curvy shape and that’s what’s in fashion now, not fat bums.Any one who is African can spot an African bum,I’ve never met a white woman with that shape and that’s the shape most reality and Instagram girls are after.
When a person’s culture has faced discrimination and now it’s only accepted from a white person who financially benefits is what CA is to me. Most black women on tv are wearing wigs,recently I’ve seen two newsreaders who ditched the wigs ,you can’t imaging how that made me feel. Most black women I know even today feel that they have to in order to get or keep their job.

Black people don’t get to choose how their hair comes out or where they are born.

What? You mean white people get to choose their hair and where they are born? Then why are there so many red necks in trailer parks and why do so many white women bleach their hair if they can choose all this ahead of being born?

@Tinalima
“As for the those saying white women also have big bums, that’s clearly a lie..”

My brothers would say you are mistaken.. Some white women do have naturally curvy large bums. Just because you’ve never met one, doesn’t mean they do not exist and everyone else is lying.

@DoctorAllcome
You might have a big bum but I assure you it’s not a black woman’s shape , you know the shape Kim k got with injections,the shape that’s in fashion now is not big bums that white woman have naturally. Maybe you don’t see a lot of black women, but I come from a county where almosy all the women have that shape( Brazilian bum lift shape).

I think the line is very fine, cultural admiration and celebration is fine but I am intrinsically uncomfortable with people who make money out of appropriating a cultural style.
When I was younger I travelled in Ethiopia/Northern Africa and when in Ethiopia some female friends I made there put my hair into corn rows, with beads/shells etc. (We laughed for about 4 hours as my hair was all over the place) They told me all about the tradition and how decoration and style can be used to denote a whole range of things. They felt it was a sign of their friendship and respect to show me how to do this and I returned the sentiment. (I cooked them some British style food in a sort of exchange) So in that context I would say corn rows was definitely not appropriation rather respect and education.....my point being content is everything.

@Tinalima
Oh, I see lots of black (and white) women where I live. I think your country lacks diversity if you hardly see any white women.

My bum and it’s skin color/ethnicity, size & shape are none of your beeswax.

KK’s bum is not natural so is neither African nor Armenian nor “white.”
Have you even seen untouched photos of her bum? It’s a grotesque parody. It looks nothing like an actual big booty.

Suggest you be a bit more open minded. Your opinion is similar to people who think there are no 6ft tall Chinese people. You’re stereotyping.

@DoctorAllcome

This isn't about body shape. Yes, most of the curvy women I know are black but you're right- i know a few white women whose bodies are unreal.

The point is, it's more common on black women. And black women were often ridiculed. Now that white celebs have began enhancing their bodies, it's all of a sudden become ideal. In other words, it's only desirable in white people. I was once teased for having big lips, and I know almost all bme girls have had similar experiences. Why is it that white women can have the exact same features as blacks yet one group is compared to an ape and one is revered and called beautiful? Can someone please explain how this is all in our heads?

Darkened their skin? Are you speaking of sunbathing or our prolific use of tanning bedszdx? That has absolutely nothing to do with cultural appropriation of African Americans....Just our insane beloef that tan is healthy

It is just another snowflake garbage term imported from the US. Do only goldminers get to wear Levi jeans?

I didn’t mean county, I meant country, and you are the one who mentioned your bum not me. Different ethnicities have different shapes , and yes in my country women have Kim k’s shape , the only difference is that we have big thighs to go with the big bum.And The poster above explained it better , most black women have that curvy bum that’s now in fashion with plastic surgery.

@ThatFlamingCandle
I see your point regarding fashion trends.
The reason why big bums on all women were ridiculed was fashion. Because they are more common in different ethnicities, those ethnicities were disproportionately affected.

Fashions change per celebrity influence. If a country is majority white or black or Asian....more celebrities are from that majority. So the fact big bums came back into fashion was because of the same reason it went out in the first place...celebrities wanted to be edgy and new. So they start a new fashion trend. And, no it’s not only ideal in white people...big bums are being celebrated in everyone as that is the new fashion.

There is no racist conspiracy going on. It’s just fashion.
I am more concerned about blackfishing celebrities to be honest like Ariana Grande. Having a big bum pales in comparison to what she has done with her accent, her lyrics, her outfits, her skin darkening.

@tinalima
Sorry but KKs bum looks nothing like a natural bum.