Is the teacher or me?!

[Treeli]

Full disclosure, DS can be a sod behaviour wise. Low level disruption, he’s been on report twice since he started secondary school. He’s just started year 8.

When he joined the school he was streamed middle/bottom sets. He passed his SATS but he’s an August born.

Last year he absolutely smashed science. Didn’t show much ability in class but past his assessments with flying colours. I knew and his teacher made it clear he didn’t want him in the top set but they had to move him due to his assessment marks.

3 weeks into term and I’ve just looked through his science book. They had a quick pop quiz of last years material and his teacher has written this:

XXXXX, should you be in this class? Are you comfortable? I have SERIOUS concerns about you being here looking at this, id like to talk to you after class.

I’m the last person to go running to the school complaining about poor DS (in fact I was the one who told them to put him on report last time), but doesn’t that seem a bit harsh 3 weeks into term when they are going over material from last year?

Wow! First of all, I wasn't patronising but that's polite and friendly because this is how I approach people. I'm not a defensive, confrontational, direct, rude or patronising person. Calling me patronising without considering another possibility in my addressing you as 'dear' is, therefore, unfair. As to "hit them where it hurts", I'm just amazed at the anger behind it when corrective strategies with a big doze of compassion and reasoning with kids and their parents can produce better results, in my experience. I've seen, dos and don'ts make more sense to children and their parents when reasons behind them and the consequences are explored, explained and discussed. In my experience, happy kids are seldom disruptive. Building trust between schools and home is key to addressing so many issues and making life much easier for everyone. This is much harder for parents who may have had bad memories of their own school days or schools that see things as black and white or already have anger issues within them towards kids, their parents or both. There are more issues as to why the education system is not as good as it should be. Misbehaved kids, some of their parents, and some unaware teachers are a few of them and the most important ones. Building trust and constructing a good relationship between parents, school and the kids solves most of the issues we are facing today. In my experience, this encouraged cooperation between all sides and achieved the best results. The atmosphere of us and them isn't healthy or helpful. Often it makes things even worse. Defensiveness, anger, sarcasm, 'do as I tell you or else' make matters worse. Kids need to have good models for their behaviour and problem solving while at school, especially if they lack parents as good role models.

echt, I'm amazed at your comment to me. Are you a teacher? For your information, I've been learning to read and write English since I was 13 and still need to work on it. I'm aware that I'll never master it. Nevertheless, I was thought good enough to teach basic English to foreign kids at schools in the UK.

Teacher's are always right, then! We should put our total faith in them, then! Wow! I've taught and have been a parent too!

Gosh, I hope you didn't teach grammar or punctuation ...

And yet nobody has said anything about not showing compassion or caring. Equally nobody had suggested we shouldn't have good relationships.

Equally, I'm not wasting lesson time negotiating with disruptive students or justifying every simple instruction because it's too much to expect a student to follow a very clear instruction.
What people often mean when they talk about explaining and reasoning is that 1 child choosing to disrupt everyone else should cause the lesson to be put on hold while the teacher has to explain to them that they really should refrain from laughing at the students who want to learn because they might think that's unkind and shouting out is disruptive. The reality is the disruptive student KNOWS all this (and actually in my experience holding them to account because I care instead of playing the silly "let me explain to a 16 year old why their out of order behaviour is out of order" actually brings about better relationships and respect).

You seem to taking a strong belief that students should be able to learn without having their behaviour minimised and excused means being angry, defensive, not building relationships and so on.

There's a very Paul Dix/Pivotal undertone to what you're advocating, which seems to take the view of "classroom filled with mutual respect and clear boundaries for all = poor relationships, too defensive"

My child lost their break for talking to their friend. They were whispering about the work and I don't give the school permission to bully my child (reality: teacher had said work in silence, they had to speak to the students multiple times and eventually has sanctioned them)

Working in silence outside of assessments/exams is inhumane. I once asked teachers to do half a day in a course under the rules we put on the children. They couldn't do it.

My child was humiliated today for dropping their pen (reality: student has been meaning with equipment, preventing others learning, has tried to argue back and the teacher sent them outside to talk to remove the audience their DC was trying to play to)

Or kid dripped pen and it is a "labelled child". See below.

My child is in isolation for not understanding the work. They're not claiming it's for missing detentions too but I already told them teacher I didn't give my permission (reality: the child has arrived late, made a big entry, disrupted the lesson by talking, not done the work because they didn't pay attention, then argued with the teacher over the fact they couldn't have done the work because they didn't understand it, was given a detention, the child told the teacher "my mam says you can't do that because she doesn't consent", child doesn't attend detention and so it moves up the behaviour policy)

Teacher is ineffective at engaging this individual who may have issues accessing the curriculum in this or all lessons. Mum is sick of unreasonable punishments with little support so rightfully withdraws consent for detentions. Those requests usually come to me and I adapt them to say that detentions should be approved by mum. This helps because mum is usually on board with reasonable discipline for inappropriate behaviour or slacking and or stops teachers lazily throwing out sanctions in place of effective class management.

My child is learning to hate school because they go from teacher to teacher being picked on. No other child gets in trouble for asking questions but my child does. (Reality: their child is disruptive in multiple lessons and consequently gets spoken to for their behaviour and sanctioned)

Multiple teachers gossip about the student and therefore they are labelled. If a noise in heard in class,they blame that kid. I was once discussing discipline issues with a new teacher who was on their 2nd INSET day so hadn't even met the students properly. I said something like "there's very few who will greet you with F off" and she replied "except Jonny Doe!". I asked her how she knew Jonny Doe and she told me that she'd heard he was the "worst kid in the school". It was interesting to hear what else she'd been told about students she hasn't even met and probably won't teach and their parents. What chance does Jonny Doe have?

I think Michael Gove et al should be proud of the generation of teachers he has produced with his cuts and policies.

Another thing that is problematic is that we have this issue of gentrification coupled with the shit economy. It means that people with MC expectations end up in state schools in underprivileged areas where much of the school's population experience various degrees of deprivation. They want to live in Zone 2/3 but not have their children tainted by Zone 2/3 problems that people who have lived their for generations face. If you live somewhere like that and send your child to the local school, there are going to be a high number of students with various social and mental health issues. Even things like the number of children born very prematurely increase in those areas. Additionally, gentrification means you have staff from that background too.

I don't think you need to be reasonable or calm when your child has been treated some of the ways that I've seen. I think some teachers' have a very inflated view of their role in society and the fact that parents can be prosecuted for not making their child attend a school where they feel isolated, harassed and humiliated by staff and/or students makes them think there is nothing parents can do but submit to their power over them.

From what I remember of school, the children that played up in class were almost always put in the bottom sets. Maybe because the view was if they're being naughty why should they be rewarded by being moved up just to intefer with others education by disrupting the class?

chilledbee
Silence other than exams is inhumane? Ok. I'm guessing anyone who has ever worked in silence for a period of time is now traumatised.
Teachers couldn't manage to work silently for a period of time?
Funny, our staffroom is regularly silent during PPA because we are working.

The more you post on these things the more I wonder if you're straight out of the Pivotal movement excuse disruptive behaviour, tell teachers they need to be more entertaining and engaging otherwise they are the cause of disruptive behaviour.

Or whether you are in education at all as you're talking about parents rightfully withdrawing consent for detentions when the law is clear that schools do not require consent and has been for some time (and on another thread were contradicting lots of posters involved in admissions).

Equally the idea of associating staff who care about their pupils and want them to acheieve whilst not allowing a minority to disrupt the learning with being some sort of blind Gove supporters is also laughable.

From what I remember of school, the children that played up in class were almost always put in the bottom sets.
Maybe because the view was if they're being naughty why should they be rewarded by being moved up just to intefer with others education by disrupting the class?
There's a couple of issues there.
Putting a child in bottom set because of behaviour was common, but less so now in most good schools. It's not fair on the weaker children who need the support and nurturing of a smaller class and teacher who is skilled at teaching bottom set to have their education disrupted. If anything, placing disruptive students in an academically weak class has a bigger impact on those weaker students.

If a student, due to long standing misbehaviour, lacks the knowledge and skills to thrive in a higher class then they would be rightly placed in a lower set because they aren't currently able to work at the level of the set above.

I've had classes at GCSE where we've made classes of able but historically lazy/disruptive students into one class and then they've been given to the strongest staff to get them caught up academically with the positive relationships and no nonsense required to have an environment of mutual respect. They can be testing at the start of y10 but they're groups I've looked on fondly over the years. Of course, that requires a department to have a lot of strong teachers to be able to preferentially staff like that (and usually that means staff taking on 2 y11 classes)

Other times, an able but historically badly behaved student can be moved up a set because it removes their audience and actually it's a really good thing for them because the norms in the class are different and they will tend to slot in nicely.

There's no perfect way and a lot will depend on timetabling and staff availability.

I swear that only the parents of best behaved, hard working children can be found on Mumsnet

@LolaSmiles

So you work under imposed silence by your superiors and are punished if you speak?

As for the admissions argument, I sincerely hope and parents who have medical needs that would necessitate their child being at a particular school take my advice and supply said additional information to support their application.

I do absolutely insist parents give consent for detentions where they have genuine and proven concerns about their child being unreasonably disciplined by staff which has happened several times. For example, giving an hour detention to an autistic student with dexterity issues for taking more than 3 minutes to get changed.

The difference between us is that I absolutely believe you're a teacher because you religiously regurgitate the narrative we are encouraged to adopt. The same narrative which sees children (particularly SEN) subject to abuse in our schools. The biggest difference is that you obviously enjoy that role in society and I just cannot be a part of it any more.

I swear that only the parents of best behaved, hard working children can be found on Mumsnet
Far from it. Most of us (parents and teachers alike) know exactly what kids can be like. They're great most of the time and even the nicest kids can push their luck, try it on and make mistakes. Most people know and accept that.

What I think parents and schools are rightly tolerating less is unpleasant behaviour between peers (banter Vs bullying) and the minority of repeatedly disruptive students who actively prevent the majority from learning.

Chilled
You can talk about insisting on consent all you like or giving extreme examples.
The law is clear. Schools do not have to have parental permission for detentions.

You've very much got this whole anti education chip going on that seems to involve turning up on almost every thread about education arguing that even the most reasonable expectations are somehow awful and Draconian. It's very us vs them where there's you and your opinions (usually having a go at staff and schools) Vs some mean army of Give style robots who hate children

God, as a teacher I think this one is thick as shit for writing a comment like that. Pretty much guaranteed to fuck off the parent and not professional. I would write eg this is not what you were asked to do, please listen carefully, then grade it accordingly low and raise concerns if I thought your son should not be there. Maybe speak to your son explaining bluntly that he needs to work harder to stay in the set because this doesn't cut it and his assessment suggests he can do much better. Not write shit like that!

MrsDesireeCarthorse
It really is the most bizarre thing to write in a book considering the multitude of trivial complaints schools get for much less.

Definitely a talk to the teacher moment.

Shit like what?

What the teacher wrote, that s/he is concerned the OP's son is struggling at the level he's been placed into is way less harsh than your "this is not what you were asked to do" proposal!

I don't know where all these perfect kids and parents are on MN, because the only ones I seem to come across are the ones excusing bad behaviour, minimising bad behaviour, blaming it on being born in July (twelve years later!!!) and calling teachers all the names under the sun for daring to suggest that Junior might not be the bright spark he so clearly believes himself to be.

Obviously, had the teacher approached the mother first, she'd have been in the doghouse for going over Junior's head. Can't win, really.

I think the bigger issue is your son behaving like a twat tbh. You need to sort that out rather than focus on the fact a teacher doesn’t really want him in her class (who can blame her by the sounds of it?).

Being August born is really no excuse, I hate it being used as one. It didn’t hold Neil Armstrong back.

The difference between us is that I absolutely believe you're a teacher because you religiously regurgitate the narrative we are encouraged to adopt.

You claim to be SLT ChilledBee (on another thread) and quite frankly, like most who have been in such a hurry to leave the classroom, you are talking nonsense here. I’m not surprised you are SLT sadly.

Schools do not have to have parental permission for detentions.

You can't hold someone's child against their will. You also have to ensure that your "sanctions" are in line with various Acts related to Human Rights. Children are humans after all.

You're right. I am in a hurry to not be a part of the Goverment approved abuse that goes on in schools. Having children (especially one who is adopted) seriously made me review my expectations of children (largely enforced by teaching).

But having more than one kid in the schools you've worked in sectioned or worse, killed themselves,does that to you too.

The mean girls who smoked around the corner, rolled their skirts up and lost their virginity at 13 did and do exist, but Christ as a teacher you should be more than aware there is probably something going on in their lives to end up like that

You lost me at this bitchy mean statement op.

So all I will say is if you want your son to improve, let the school deal with him as this teacher is doing snd support them. Don't molly coddle him by running to the teacher and complaining.

TheCanterburyWhales
To be fair to the OP those sorts of comments in books are at best odd and and at worst not the best way to give feedback.
As a member of staff I'd not write that in a book. I'd probably write something like "not up to expectations, see me".

It's fine to talk to the child first about the issues but I think the teacher has been misguided here on this.

You can't hold someone's child against their will. You also have to ensure that your "sanctions" are in line with various Acts related to Human Rights. Children are humans after all
Nobody has said about holding against their will.
A missed detention goes as a missed detention and it moves up the policy.

I agree Chloe. I'm torn between not being surprised there are members of SLT with zero awareness or consideration for day to day educating and such contempt for frontline teachers and thinking Chilled is a wind up merchant.

Given on the admissions thread they were claiming that people are naive if they expect admissions policies to be followed because their friend was steered into getting a place by helping at school fairs when her baby was in nappies or something like that.
They also claimed that heads will help parents magically fit top priority criteria to get the parents they want (which is a bloody joke when you see how hard parents of children with special needs have to fight for everything) and then come on here acting like they're the only person to care about children with SEND etc.

On every thread it's pretty much the same, turn up, attack front line professionals, share misinformation and if in doubt start acting like there's a big conspiracy where everyone else in education hates kids

I think that you should speak to the teachers but more about how to ensure your child's behaviour is acceptable and how you can support them.

It's a lesson he needs to learn. You can't mess about and expect to be excused because you are bright.

You know, if he has just moved up from the lower sets, then he will not have had the same in depth teaching as the rest of the set.

I hear all of the education experts on here cry out "the curriculum is ubiquitous ". But you know that it isnt right? That is why there is streaming in the first place. Lower sets are taught less detail and complicated issues are skimmed over.

How do I know this? I moved my DD school at the start of yr8 due to bullying. Despite her having been in all of the top sets and special streams throughout her education, she was put in the lower set 3 for streamed subjects, maths, english, science, French.

Through laborious politics and other such nonsense, it took almost the full year to get in to the top set in science. It was made even more difficult by the fact that she had not been taught enough detail to pass the upper level assessments her teachers kept putting her in for. They all knew she didnt belong in those sets as did the pupils who laughed at her every time she answered a question because of her vocabulary. She received the second highest results across all of her assessments in the entire school last year.

Once in the top set she would come home crying because the teachers assumed that she would know what they were talking about, even though she had not been taught it in the lower sets. She is begging to go back to the lower sets, not because she is incapable, she just feels like she is too far behind. She has had sanctions and has been told off in front of the whole class in terms of not deserving her top set place (because for the first time ever, she forgot her book).

If he has just moved up sets, he may be out of his depth and perhaps the teacher could ASK him if this is the case.

A different perspective from my school years is as follows...I was top set everything too, but I was bored stiff. The teachers would focus on the favourites and ignore others. For my maths teacher I was an other.

I once sat with my arm raised for an entire lesson, whilst getting on with all the rest of the work, finishing it , checking it, waiting. After 45 minutes he came over and I really couldn't remember by that point why he came over.

Everyone was getting ready for the bell about to ring and I was quite embarrassed so I asked him if he lost a hair every time he was wrong (he was bald).

I know this was wrong but after months of watching him help his favourites, I was frustrated.

So disruptive behaviour is sometimes not all about the little SID but due to teachers failing to communicate respectfully.

SID? SOD

What I said was that my friend become acquainted with the staff at the school she wants her child to attend. What they did is advise her to move nearer (she did), chase up some minor developmental concerns because they do employ the exceptional medical/social needs criteria (no it isn't in their admissions policy but is on their LEA website as a general thing for all schools which you apply for separately like SEN students do), and that they only have a handful of potential siblings for that year (2021) in a 2 form entry school. She also knows that they have relatively few looked after children compared to the 2 closest schools which are single form entry faith schools. She did this by becoming friendly over time and attending events to donate/help out and not harassing them like the OP of the other thread was starting to do. If they were both after the same place, do you think they'd have told that OP all that information?

Poor behaviour was a massive issue in all my daughters too set classes last year. One or two pupils were constantly causing low level disruption to high level disruption.
It took her and is requesting something be done several times before they did anything.
The whole set was put 'on report' a book went into every class that each teacher had to write in at the end of class.
A pattern was easily seen, stuff that might not be worthy of an official report but was happening consistently and causing disruption.

Just because there isn't anything on his report doesn't mean he is behaving.

He is being lazy with his answers and that is not top set work.

So

1. distance is in the admission criteria
2. SEND considerations are LA and SEND information is available
3. Sibling knowledge is irrelevant to know or not and so knowing that has absolutely sod all impact on her ability to ensure her DC is a priority

4 LAC information compared to other schools also doesn't help your friend be further up either because LAC children always have priority and can do mid year moves etc as well. This also doesn't help your friend.

So when you claimed that the school did all this stuff to help your friend ensure she gets a place for 2021 because they go out of their way to help get the parents they like, you're actually telling us is that she's been told information that is publicly available and some snippets about current cohort that she can do nothing to change to better her child's position?

And you still insisted people pointing out the reality of admissions are wrong because you think your friend got all this help from the school as the school liked her for helping out at school events when her DC is 1?