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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is the teacher or me?!

184 replies

Treeli · 23/09/2019 18:15

Full disclosure, DS can be a sod behaviour wise. Low level disruption, he’s been on report twice since he started secondary school. He’s just started year 8.

When he joined the school he was streamed middle/bottom sets. He passed his SATS but he’s an August born.

Last year he absolutely smashed science. Didn’t show much ability in class but past his assessments with flying colours. I knew and his teacher made it clear he didn’t want him in the top set but they had to move him due to his assessment marks.

3 weeks into term and I’ve just looked through his science book. They had a quick pop quiz of last years material and his teacher has written this:

XXXXX, should you be in this class? Are you comfortable? I have SERIOUS concerns about you being here looking at this, id like to talk to you after class.

I’m the last person to go running to the school complaining about poor DS (in fact I was the one who told them to put him on report last time), but doesn’t that seem a bit harsh 3 weeks into term when they are going over material from last year?

OP posts:
LolaSmiles · 23/09/2019 22:15

Again you're being very selective.

What I said was:
It depends if we mean cool and popular because they're really nice, kind, well rounded young adults or cool and popular as in a bit of a pain in the arse, walk around like they own the place but most of the year really keep their distance and pity them.

I've taught loads of top set children in the first category. They were delightful, friendly, inclusive, hard working, keen to get on with everyone, able to get on in groups with people regardless of being friends or not. They were funny, sarcastic and sometimes very switched on and cynical. They were absolutely cool and popular for the right reasons

So not at all saying anyone who is well liked is mean.

The mean girls who smoked around the corner, rolled their skirts up and lost their virginity at 13 did and do exist, but Christ as a teacher you should be more than aware there is probably something going on in their lives to end up like that.
Nobody mentioned people losing vriginity at 13 or smoking or rolling skirts up.

The observation was that there are two different ways people can be cool and popular:

  1. By being a genuine delight and really friendly and getting on with people
  2. Actually being in some nasty clique of so called "cool girls/boys" who are deeply unpleasant to others. They aren't really liked because their conduct isn't nice.
FinallyHere · 23/09/2019 22:26

what does that tell DS?

In an ideal world, he would get the message to stop messing about, spoiling things for himself and for others.

HugoSpritz · 23/09/2019 22:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Treeli · 23/09/2019 22:42

@HugoSpritz, because the 'little sod' comment was leapt on by posters who only wanted to discuss his behaviour and not the work he had done.

Twice on this thread he was accused of cheating to get into top set Hmm.

I've gone over the work with him and asked him to show me where he thinks he went wrong and what he could do to improve it (write the paragraph not just the answers, use more scientific language and learn how to draw a diagram of the digestive system (that was a particular low point)). It isn't his best work, I will freely admit that, but I wonder if another child would have been leapt on with such harsh feedback?

If you got promoted at work and produced some work which came back from your manager with 'are you sure you should be in this job? I have SERIOUS concerns about this'...wouldn't you be asking for something a bit more constructive? And telling them they put you in the job in the first place!

OP posts:
LolaSmiles · 23/09/2019 22:48

The little sod comment is relevant because in many situations behaviour and attitude to learning are linked to progress and attainment.

Bright enough child who acts like a wee sod at times doesn't do well in a piece of work on moving up a set (having previously scored highly in a lower set whilst messing on) makes the behaviour/attitude a fairly textbook link. It might take him some time to realise he is in top set so throwing something together not to the required standard isn't going to cut it anymore.

The comments need discussing with the teacher though.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 23/09/2019 22:57

I think the problem is that he wasn’t achieving highly while messing about Lola.

LolaSmiles · 23/09/2019 23:14

If he was scoring top 3 in his lower set then he was managing to acheieve, just not achieve enough and retain the information to find top set a breeze.

If the work and assessment tasks were easier in last year's class then it's possible for a student to mess on, not pay full attention, whing the assessment because it's close to when the original material was covered and get a decent score.
It doesn't mean they've got deeper knowledge of the topic or that their knowledge and skills are comparable with the next set up though.

Going from being top of a set where you can do well on limited effort to a set where you actually will have to work to keep up can be a shock for some students.

converseandjeans · 23/09/2019 23:37

However tricky your DS is I don't think that's appropriate. I'm a teacher and wouldn't write this sort of comment.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 23/09/2019 23:41

Which is why most schools wouldn’t make decisions about moving set on those assessments alone.

I don’t condone the way it’s been handled. The comments in the book are shocking. But this is probably a conversation that needed having and 3 weeks in is as good as any. It gives him plenty of time to change his attitude and turn it around.

IamtheDevilsAvocado · 24/09/2019 08:56

Yes the calling out in class..
Probably this is not a one off.. Behaviour that lasted a few seconds... Probably he'd been disruptive for some time and that was what it was recorded as.....

I'm biased... I had the first 3 years of secondary school ruined by a few kids in my unstreamed class... Learnt nothing... I used to sit reading while the teacher was telling off a naughty kid for the nth time that lesson /marching them down to head's office....
Was I glad when we were streamed.... Mightily sorry for the well behaved not academically bright kids who had ALL their education ruined by these kids

Youmakemewannashout · 24/09/2019 09:26

You admit that your son has been on report twice already and that he can be a sod behaviour wise so surely you can see why he’s had a warning already. Learning is a combination of aptitude and attitude-the .teacher has a whole class to consider and shouldn’t have to waste time each lesson dealing with one disruptive pupil.

my2bundles · 24/09/2019 09:46

My son is a hard worker who wants to concentrate and learn . Tne little sods in primary who disrupted even low level discretion caused him upset and took his mind off task the teacher has 30 kids to think of and shouldn't be behaviour managing year 8 😠 Thank tne lord my son's high school has zero tolerance of little sods who are promptly removed so those who are there to work can do without the teachers time being taken away by little sods.

HeartvsHead · 24/09/2019 09:54

teacher has a whole class to consider and shouldn’t have to waste time each lesson dealing with one disruptive pupil

So what should they do? Stick all the kids that can be disruptive in one class together and leave them to it? Cause all kids that are a bit cheeky and disruptive in Yr7&8 have no hope!?

In a lot of schools you are not just talking about a couple or kids, you are talking a chunk of each year group that would come into the 'low level disruption' category. The teachers need to teach them how to behave by using the schools behaviour policy consistently regardless of what class they are in.

LolaSmiles · 24/09/2019 11:22

So what should they do? Stick all the kids that can be disruptive in one class together and leave them to it? Cause all kids that are a bit cheeky and disruptive in Yr7&8 have no hope!?

In a lot of schools you are not just talking about a couple or kids, you are talking a chunk of each year group that would come into the 'low level disruption' category. The teachers need to teach them how to behave by using the schools behaviour policy consistently regardless of what class they are in.
I agree.
But then it's an awful coincidence that the ones who are routinely disruptive (and I hate the phrase low level disruption, if you're preventing others learning it's disruptive behaviour full stop), also have parents who start MN threads fuming because:
My child was kept back for just asking a question (reality: repeatedly disrupting, not listening and then asking pointed questions whilst the class are getting on)

My child lost their break for talking to their friend. They were whispering about the work and I don't give the school permission to bully my child (reality: teacher had said work in silence, they had to speak to the students multiple times and eventually has sanctioned them)

My child was humiliated today for dropping their pen (reality: student has been meaning with equipment, preventing others learning, has tried to argue back and the teacher sent them outside to talk to remove the audience their DC was trying to play to)

My child is in isolation for not understanding the work. They're not claiming it's for missing detentions too but I already told them teacher I didn't give my permission (reality: the child has arrived late, made a big entry, disrupted the lesson by talking, not done the work because they didn't pay attention, then argued with the teacher over the fact they couldn't have done the work because they didn't understand it, was given a detention, the child told the teacher "my mam says you can't do that because she doesn't consent", child doesn't attend detention and so it moves up the behaviour policy)

My child is learning to hate school because they go from teacher to teacher being picked on. No other child gets in trouble for asking questions but my child does. (Reality: their child is disruptive in multiple lessons and consequently gets spoken to for their behaviour and sanctioned)

My child is being bullied by all the other students because nobody wants to work with them and they keep being told to shut up for asking about the work (reality: students in the class want to learn, the student is disruptive, the class have had enough and are ignoring their attention seeking behaviour and the teacher is following the behaviour policy).

It's not "low level". It's disruption and disruption that prevents thousands of children doing well every year because parents minimise it and say they're a bit chatty, they're full of beans, they're just sociable, they can be a bit silly, it was just a question, sometimes they get distracted, it was only...

Parents are absolutely right to be annoyed if their child's education is being hindered by those who seek to disrupt.
Teachers should absolutely deal with that behaviour.
Some parents need to stop minimising the impact of their child's actions and stop backing their child over the school.

my2bundles · 24/09/2019 12:10

Lolasmiles very well said.

mary1066 · 24/09/2019 12:14

Teacher's are always right, then! We should put our total faith in them, then! Wow! I've taught and have been a parent too! I know how both sides can get it wrong so unless I've been there I wouldn't make such sweeping judgements, dear Lola. Shouldn't both sides have an open mindset before dealing with each individual case rather than resorting to either this or that! I see too much anger amongst many posters who are teachers and that's very alarming to me. We are talking about children here and not criminals in prisons. In my experience openness and compassion towards the kids, their parents and teachers go a long way. It's worth remembering our own school days and our best, worst and in between teachers every now and then.

my2bundles · 24/09/2019 12:16

Mary it's very difficult to feel compassion towards children who continuously disrupt lessons and have a long term negative effect on the other 29 children in the classroom.

lovemenorca · 24/09/2019 12:17

So what should they do? Stick all the kids that can be disruptive in one class together and leave them to it? Cause all kids that are a bit cheeky and disruptive in Yr7&8 have no hope!?

Not exactly but not far off
These children have been in the education for 7/8/9 years by the time they’re in year 7 and 8.

If they Still don’t know how to behave in a classroom setting then yes - I do think the consequences start to hit them where it hurts.
Missed school trips, one strike and detention at lunch and, if serious and ongoing, then yes - separation.

LolaSmiles · 24/09/2019 12:21

Mary
Nobody has said teachers are always right. Nobody is talking about prisons or criminals either. Heaven forbid we called disruptive behaviour what it is: disruptive behaviour instead of pussy footing around whilst 28 other students lose learning time and attention from staff.

Many of us on this thread have been suggesting the OP contacts the school about the comments. Again, hardly a sign of schools always being right.

In terms of your patronising "dear Lola" comments, the bottom line is that more often than not the students who repeatedly prevent learning and are disruptive DO tend to have parents who back their child and minimise their actions. That's how the child learns they can behave how like like and home will call up all guns blazing because their child says...

Meanwhile most students are fabulous. They sometimes get it wrong and can make bad choices (twas ever thus), but we deal with it's the students deal with it, it's never personal and we all move on.

I do remember my school days and that includes the popular nice students who'd get on with everyone, the so called cool and popular ones who were PITA and horrible and nobody really liked, the big known names who had big incident after incident, and there were those who routinely disrupted learning enough lesson after lesson but because it "was low level" we were all expected to tolerate it (often with the teacher then catering the whole of next lesson around the preferences of those who disrupted last time). The same groups exist today.

lovemenorca · 24/09/2019 12:41

the bottom line is that more often than not the students who repeatedly prevent learning and are disruptive DO tend to have parents who back their child and minimise their actions.

And in some cases they think fighting their child’s corner and defending them is sufficient parenting. It’s not. It’s the hard work that in many cases means you avoid needing to fight their corner and defend them at school

KittyVonCatsington · 24/09/2019 12:42

Teacher's are always right, then! We should put our total faith in them, then! Wow! I've taught and have been a parent too! I know how both sides can get it wrong so unless I've been there I wouldn't make such sweeping judgements, dear Lola. Shouldn't both sides have an open mindset before dealing with each individual case rather than resorting to either this or that! I see too much anger amongst many posters who are teachers and that's very alarming to me. We are talking about children here and not criminals in prisons. In my experience openness and compassion towards the kids, their parents and teachers go a long way. It's worth remembering our own school days and our best, worst and in between teachers every now and then.

Do you ever actually read what LolaSmiles posts? That could not be further from the truth over her approach and other teachers on here. You write yourself that I know how both sides can get it wrong and all Lola and other teachers try to point out is exactly this.
Why it is so hard for some parents to calmly talk to a school about any issues, rather than whip up a storm online, I will never understand.

echt · 24/09/2019 13:01

Teacher's are always right, then! We should put our total faith in them, then! Wow! I've taught and have been a parent too! I know how both sides can get it wrong so unless I've been there I wouldn't make such sweeping judgements, dear Lola. Shouldn't both sides have an open mindset before dealing with each individual case rather than resorting to either this or that! I see too much anger amongst many posters who are teachers and that's very alarming to me. We are talking about children here and not criminals in prisons. In my experience openness and compassion towards the kids, their parents and teachers go a long way. It's worth remembering our own school days and our best, worst and in between teachers every now and then

So if you've taught, mary1066, then you can read. I hope.

Loalsmiles has been exemplary in the measured nature of her responses.

LolaSmiles · 24/09/2019 13:07

It's always the way on school threads sadly

It's not fun to hold the views:
1.Students who disrupt learning and are unpleasant to others should be held accountable for their actions and not have their actions minimised by school or parents

  1. If you have concerns then speak to the most appropriate person in school in a reasonable way and you'll probably get a good resolution. Failing that, an official complaint through the procedures is the next way to hold them to account.

It's ever so boring you know. It's much better to open the hyperbole box and claim that everyone thinks teachers are gods.

mauvaisereputation · 24/09/2019 13:11

Awful. Perhaps he would be more comfortable in another set, but there's no excuse for the teacher raising the issue in this way.

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