Absolutely on my knees and I don’t know what to do

[TooMuchPeppa86]

I don’t even know where to start

I work part time (3 days) in a job that doesn’t really fit into part time hours. I cut my hours because I have two wee girls (5 and 2) who are my whole world and I thought it’s fine it’ll be a few years of working at nights once they’re asleep and then I can increase my hours in the office once they’re at school.

Five year old started school last month. Her sleep is beyond horrific. She has no interest in sleep she won’t even try. But I need to stay in her room or she just kicks off. Last night it was 11pm before she went to sleep. I then had to work until 3am to stay afloat.

I can’t do this any more. I can’t. The first thought I had when I woke up this morning was sheer panic about how behind I am at work because I can’t fit it all in.

She won’t have DH. He does the housework at night and keeps that ticking over.

We'd tried extinction methods, audio books, mindfulness visualisations (helped a bit), bed nest in our room (disastrous), reward charts (Dd doesn't give two), and just plain old losing our shit. Tokens are really good, they give Dd control, they give you a plan. If you try tokens (I think you should), you will need to be properly consistent, 2-3 weeks at least. Don't throw the towel in when the novelty wears off and she pushes against it, because she will.

I was worried about starting school and that throwing things off again. I talked to Dd and she really wanted a playmobil family camping trip set. I got that off amazon, we wrote the individual parts on slips of paper, and put them in a pot, lucky dip style. For every 2 good sleeps Dd picks a slip and gets another piece of the camping set for her collection. It's working brilliantly, she's slept through for 11 nights,
her best roll for 14 months, had one bad night then started sleeping through again! I think it's working because it's now immediate than a reward chart.

I can sympathise. My dd is 7 and has ASD. She just doesn't get as tired, she cannot switch her brain off. We are trialing meltonin after a sleep clinic programme for 6 weeks. They clinic agreed that it is not us doing anything wrong, or even her behaving badly, but that she cannot get to sleep.

People who've never really had a bad sleeper (and I mean a really bad sleeper) don't get it.

My dd was like yours with only wanting me. But then I did put my foot down and told her (and DH!) that we were going to start taking it in turns. We did a visual routine for her, showing who was doing each day. She kicked off to start with, but we held strong and just explained that was what was happeneing. It was definitely easier if I was out of the house.

Ds2 was like this, and sleeping in our bed, as he would get out of his own. I done something I will be flamed for, but I got a tv for his room. Sent him to bed at 7pm with a dvd, and he was never awake after 8pm on a school night. Far better than the 10:30, 11:00, 11:30 he was was going at.

I spoke to the health visitor about it because I felt like a crap mom and guilty, she said ‘the question is, is he sleeping better?’ And I said yes by 2-3 hours a night, and she replied so why are you feeling guilty?

As it is he’s now 14, puts himself to bed between 9:15-10:00, I never have to ask or tell him to go, but he always falls asleep with the tv on low. He’s a worrier. He says he can fall asleep better watching something, than thinking things over in his head. For the record- I am the same, and had to listen to music until I was 17 before I could switch off.

Oh crud, for the tokens you also need to write down your sleep rules!!!! We asked Dd what they should be, she said stay in bed, no shouting and wait for the sun to come up (gro clock ). She drew each rule on a piece of paper, we taped them into a booklet that she kept by her bed. Do this as part of the family meeting at the start, when you make the tokens. Get Dd to say the rules and draw them if you can, to give her ownership.

I need to write this up properly for future use!!!!

Although I had been a brilliant sleeper since I was a little baby once I reached maybe 10 (?) I found it EXTREMELY hard to go to sleep. I became a very light sleeper. Also, I realised that one of the things that bothered me was the night light. I can't sleep with it. I just keep looking at the room. My sister is exactly the same. I have also noticed that when my children had any light in the bedroom they would just keep talking and getting distracted.

Of course, a 5 year old can get scared but have you tried putting her to sleep with her sister, with or without the night light? All of mine love sleeping with a sibling/parent/grantparent in the room. At 5 two small children can easily sleep on a single bed.

You can't let your child dictate to you like this, you make the rules not her.
You must be cruel to be kind as you will all benefit from a good nights sleep.
Make a change tonight and stick to it, and no more audio book its just keeping her awake.
It will be torture for a few weeks but it will be the best thing you ever do
Good luck xxxx

I'm sorry I haven't RTFT, but my ears pricked up when you said you'd tried everything. In my experience, people HAVE tried everything, but no one thing for long enough.

Ye Supernanny tough love - back to bed every time without a word if you have to do it 50 times a night.

This is absolutely not on and you ca'nt let a child impoverish you by making you quit your job.

both of you sit her down and tell her in no uncertain terms what is happening from now on and if she doesn't like it then tough.
Sorry but its the only way.
don't let her behaviour ruin your life.

So you get paid for 3 days but you actually have to do extra hours to keep your job? Is that right? If so you need to speak to your employer about cutting out some work so that you can do everything you need to within working hours. If that's not possible then get some extra childcare and work full time.

What is it that makes you think that DD2 would be better off at home for an extra couple of days a week? She'll have a much more relaxed mum and maybe wont develop the attachment/insecurity issues DD1 has if she gets used to more time away from you.

And yes some kids can not sleep with audio tapes or nightlights.
I also think it helps to say they dont have to go to sleep, they just have to lie in bed.

Wouldn’t work with a 5 year old

My 13 year old still struggles to get through some of our doors :)

But yes, it will depend on the doors/house layout/position of handle etc.

If you are doing full time hours for paid part time - then either talk to managers about work load or up your hours and see if the work load stays the same.

Tea. Bath. Milk. Teeth. Story. Sleep. It works fine for DD2.

Have you tried swaping this around - tea story milk teeth bath.

Getting cold make the body sleepy - so baths can help people feel sleepy so if she gets cold getting dressed after the bath - re-starting her with tasks will wake her up.

Is she over tired - ie getting a second wind in such case a earlier bedtime might be needed.

Other things I've heard about over the years - magnesium suppliments as pp suggested - Lavender scent on pillows or sprayed around is also supposed to have some evidence behind.

I would also make sure she is not rewarded with attention when she is getting up and thus she is doing it more. I'm not suggesting being cruel but putting her back every time with minimal interaction possible having your DP do it.

Screen time even TV not an hour before bedtime - you may be doing this already or they may not be affecting your child - but worth looking at.

I'd also do as little as possible food prep wise and house wise until this is under crontrol - possibly even see about taking some leave till this is sorted.

Other suggestion would be to see if sleep clinic are run in your area - some areas run them and HV should be aware if such a thing exists were you are.

There are small numbers of children/adults who do need a lot less sleep than average - if after everything this turns out to be the case - getting her to stay in her room and occupied might be the only real option - but they don't suffer for it with tiredness - latest article I read about if found gentic causes.

Time outside can also apparently help reset body clocks so might be worth looking at.

www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/news/20170202/time-outdoors-may-deliver-better-sleep#1

If you do home, car, school, home and then possibly car club car it's really easy in winter especailly if there's lots of wet play in school to spend little time actually outside.

*Let her scream. Tell her daddy is the only option from now on.

She will soon stop it.*

^^this
She sounds exactly like my DD (nearly 6) except she was in our room too. In a not amazing way I totally lost it with her in the summer and we moved her out and DH stepped in. Lots of screaming for the first few nights but now she goes to sleep happily enough.

I'm not going to lie, DH is still sleeping on the floor of her room, how he gets out of that situation is up to him but she is much less clingy and needy with me. If you can't listen to the screaming could you go and work somewhere else?

Also have an older dc who has slept perfectly from the age of 3, think some children need a little bit extra.

Op. Lots of good ideas here. Which ever you choose you need to stick to it. Working with kids with behaviour problems I continually hear "we tried that but it didn't work". The reason it didn't work was because the adult gave up using them. You have to become deeply boringly consistent . If you do this most of these very good techniques mentioned on here will work. Your will needs to be stronger than your child's will.
Decide on a strategy with your OH and then you both implement it - no deviation. Calm, consistent and boring. Ignore all protestations - don't engage - just repeat over and over...

Can you tire her out with exercise?

Exercise and a big meal.

Let her cry her heart out to sleep.

Haven't RTFT, so I apologise if the discussion has moved on.

Yeah the audiobook is going. Her brain is wired because of school and I just thought it might help her to wind down but it’s not working

There's a podcast called Nothing Much Happens (www.nothingmuchhappens.com). It's for adults, but it doesn't have adult content. It helps my DD (she's 6) immensely. I don't think she's ever heard the end of one of the stories. As she said to me one morning, "It's a bit boring Mummy!" The point is it's meant to be; it's just boring enough that it allows you to switch off. Normal audiobooks keep my DD awake because they're too interesting, she wants to keep listening to them.

Might be worth a try

Oh and night lights. If it's really necessary then make sure it's a red one. Blue light interferes with melatonin production. If you have a gro clock then turn the brightness to setting 0. Even setting 1 is like the Blackpool illuminations.

I haven’t read the whole thread so this might have been suggested but as she is so attached to you could try to not be there in the evening? Explain to her you are going to work (and either work/go for walk/pub whatever and that Daddy will be putting her to bed. If you’re not there you can’t facilitate it.

Also, and I don’t mean this as a criticism, but do the girls want you because they know you give in to them?

I agree with the others - DH to do the supernanny return to bed in a boring way over and over and over until she realises that the fun bedtime has stopped.

It will take a couple of nights, and will probably be hellish for all of you. But once she realises you're not giving in, I predict she'll stop pushing.

And absolutely no getting into bed with her.

Get her out of the house going on nature walks even if it raining splash in puddles. Tire her out by doing races playing ball going swimming.
Tea bath play with sister where is the play time with mum and dad.
That is why she is wanting so much time at night as it's now a habit of her wanting one to one attention with you at night.
Go out with friends or on a date night with dh don't be always available to her.
Tell her she needs to learn to sleep by herself for when she is older to go on sleepovers.
Arrange for a friend or cousin to come for a sleepover see if she can sleep with them.

Let your DH take over, every other night. She'll settle eventually. And if not, at least you'll sleep better. Between you, you can come up with a stronger will than a 5 year old.

You have to be a little bit selfish to be able to function!

I really don't know what to think about this.
Unless your daughter has SEN, ADHD or some other problem I simply cannot understand why normal parental discipline isn't working here.
I have a friend whose kids behave like this as mum doesn't understand the difference between parent and friend.
When I babysit I make it quite clear without raising my voice or even touching them that this behaviour doesn't wash with me and once I put them to bed they stay there.
Do you and your husband have no authority over your children at all because I can tell you that mine would not be allowed to behave like this, ever.
It isn't normal for a tired child not to sleep and to challenge you in this way turning bothering you at work into some kind of a game.
I think you need to see a health visitor or your GP for an assessment and then maybe attend parenting classes.
When a child is allowed to stop you from doing an actual job that you need to survive you have a really serious problem here.
I showed this to my son, he laughed and said it would have been more than his life was worth to behave like this but is grateful for the very firm boundaries that we created together.
This isn't normal behaviour and you really should be getting some help here.

You could try a compression blanket:

www.amazon.co.uk/Busy-Blanket-Alternative-Weighted-Breathable/dp/B07VHKBYYJ/ref=pd_aw_sbs_364_2/260-5927904-3410008?psc=1&pf_rd_p=d7c21b82-b599-4edd-8ba7-113e9119ff07&_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_wg=C2B1S&pf_rd_r=29KR4AJ64X5NTEE8YQKV&pd_rd_i=B07VHKBYYJ&pd_rd_w=upwwH&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&refRID=29KR4AJ64X5NTEE8YQKV&pd_rd_r=01620fbc-430c-440a-92a2-5c664a94c551

Works for some children with sleep problems. It does sound like some kind of separation anxiety heightened by starting school coupled with a natural difficulty in sleeping.

Sticking to a strict routine would be beneficial, you need to wean her off having you lie with her which is what she is used to so I would start by reducing that time but stay in the room just further away so she can see you. Sit by the bed holding hands at first then move further away towards the door. She needs to learn to self settle. I had to use a musical night light toy that DD cuddled whilst I was there, once she associated the music with being safe and calm then she could play it once I was gone and it helped settle her. She still has some sleep issues and anxiety at age 10 and is awaiting an ASD assessment, it is miles better though. I feel your pain, the sleep deprivation is like torture.

Just throwing out a few ideas that you might not have already had:

Would you consider a change in childcare? After-school clubs can be quite full-on for younger children and often take place in a bright, echoey school hall. If there was any way for her to be at home after school it might help her to unwind.

Take her swimming in the early evening? Straight into pyjamas at the swimming pool, then home to bed. Hopefully you will catch her as the post-swimming wave of tiredness kicks in.

I would abandon the audio book and go for something really, really soothing. Look up 'binaural music' or 'concentration music' on Youtube.

Tell her that DD2 is sleeping badly and that you need her to be a role model!

I would also support asking her teacher to have a word with her. I used to teach Reception/Y1 and it wasn't uncommon for a parent to ask me to speak to their child very seriously about something .