To feel uncomfortable with regards to Drag?

[ShawshanksRedemption]

Am I the only one who feels uncomfortable with Drag?

AIUI Drag came about because women's roles were originally played by men on the stage, and from there it's evolved to have pantomime dames, which is a caricature of women. Drag has now become an art form, a performance, with programmes like RuPaul's Drag Race showing how popular it is, but at it's core it's still a caricature, it's still a parody of women, and it's gaudy, brash and the wit and put downs waspish!

I can't help but feel a bit uncomfortable about it all, maybe it's something I'm reading too much into, but effectively it's men aping women in a very unattractive way (and I'm not just talking the make up here).

Anyone else feel the same? Or should I just embrace it and get over myself?

Sleepyhead19

He sounds like a really bad insult comic. . And bad as in, not funny... well my sense of humour any way.

There is alot of acts that impersonate celebs or do an amazing lip sync. Some aren't comical at all. . Ontop of that can look beautiful!

There is so so many kind of drag queen and king.

I personally would never go and watch an insult comic unless it was someone like Bianca delrio who I personally find funny but I would love to go and see a drag show... just full of my favourite drag queens even if it was just them lip syncing, they're beautiful to look at.

For example.. one of my favs valentina. Beautiful 😍

I once had the misfortune to be working as a theatre usher when billy pearce did his stand up ‘comedy’ there

It was sexist, racist, homophobic etc

Obviously this means that all stand up comedy is sexist, racist and homophobic and belongs in the dustbin of history

MadameButterface I agree with you..

It seems drag queens are all being made out to be the exact same!!

I've watched some that aren't funny at all, they know it's about their beautiful look and that's it, they may do a lip sync but can't do comedy what so ever and are not funny!!

Some are hilarious over the top and their make up and hair the same.

Same as the drag kings that people seem to agree with but not drag queens which is confusing to me as surely if one is wrong the other is too?

Also, it's funny how dudes in drag get fawned over for their 'incredible makeup skills' but when a woman employs similar techniques, she is often derided.

But I digress.

To a PP - you're completely right, no woman in real life acts as OTT as drag queens. Funny how these dudes are 'performing femininity' when in fact, this is just their totally false idea of what femininity is - and this bitchy/waspish/queen bee type of behaviour is... well... rather unfeminine and rarely seen out in the real world. In fact, it's probably all in their heads.

Have you only seen one type of drag queen??? Because it's coming across that way.
I've seen ALOT that don't act over feminine and just as camp as they are out of drag, I've seen ALOT without massive breast plates, clownish make up and to be honest if a man has amazing make up skills and looks stunning in drag and a woman was amazing at make up I would think the exact same thing!?
I don't hate men nor do I put down women?

You seem to think men is drag is wrong but women in drag is ok.
You've suggested "licking their arses as the men would love it" (something stupid along them lines) and just come across hateful and fixated on all drag queens are EXACTLY the same.

Everyone can have a different opinion it's life but you come across (imo) nasty and very confusing to me how you think drag kings are fine.. one is wrong and taking the piss yet the other is okay to do? I don't understand that logic at all.

The whole concept of some behaviour being ‘feminine’ vs some behaviour being ‘masculine’ is total bollocks to anyone who’s done any basic feminist reading. Cordelia Fine’s delusions of gender is a good place to start i’d say :)

Also i’ve never shamed other women for wearing make up or otherwise performing femininity, and i never would, hth :) could this be yet another strawman you’ve randomly pulled out of your arse do you think? Imagine that

I’d love to see the reaction from @LaVieilleHarpie if i were to bring in a notion of who and how she would like to perform oral sex on by way of a credible refutation of her arguments here on this thread. Sadly i am much classier than that and prefer to argue based on facts rather than strawmen and ad hominems so we’ll just have to imagine instead

The whole concept of some behaviour being ‘feminine’ vs some behaviour being ‘masculine’ is total bollocks to anyone who’s done any basic feminist reading

I absolutely agree with you. And it's one of the reasons I loathe drag queens aping - and reinforcing - tired and harmful female gender stereotypes in such an exaggerated manner.

I have no problems whatsoever with men wearing dresses and makeup. Brian Molko in a dress was perfection, as was Bowie. Ditto men in makeup (DH has been known to wear eyeliner and a smudge of lippie on a night out). But they're not pretending to be women, or caricaturing us. They're just wearing a dress. That's the difference.

Go to a show before judging, talk to queen.

I wonder why this is never suggested for those who object to blackface. We don't assume, or even allow for a 'reasonable approach' or an explanation that would make us think it's ok. The fact that we know black people have been continually oppressed for centuries is enough for us to acknowledge that it's not ok. Not even if your super-non-racist friend loves Oprah and wants to dress as her for Hallowe'en, not even for satire, not the blackface traditions of paganism/morris dancing which are (arguably, I know) from origins that are nothing to do with race. It's just not ok.

But drag is.

I have to confess, I have mixed feelings about it and reading this thread has been thought-provoking and fascinating. But I do think that placing the onus for research and effectively trying to find reasons not to be bothered by something that they see as inherently offensive on the person from the oppressed group is a bit troublesome. Perhaps, given the increasing popularity and mainstream promotion of drag, those involved could be more proactive in their attempts to ensure that they are mindful of the sensibilities of those who object.

By aligning the drag community with some pretty upsetting ideas (child molestation, perjorative terms for women etc), it does undermine the arguments that it's not misogynist. Perhaps we need a middle ground - if the drag community made it unacceptable for the more extreme and offensive elements of performance then maybe the arguments in its favour would be a little less grating. In the same way that we ask men to stop accepting sexist jokes and inappropriate behaviour from their peers, perhaps this could be a more positive way to ensure that drag isn't all tarred with the same brush.

Perhaps I'm way off the mark - I'm trying to draw comparisons with other groups and campaigns and there's so much to unpick - so I'd be interested to hear whether any of those vehemently on either side of the debate think there's room for compromise?

Hi charity

Someone on here who dislikes drag has backed up their argument by making a crude sexual remark about those women who disagree with her. Perhaps, to avoid all those people who dislike drag being tarred with the same brush, everyone who dislikes drag should distance themselves from this type of offensive and derogatory comment? I notice no one has. Weird.

Go lick their Faaaabulous arses while you're at it - I'm sure they'll love it

What's wrong with you?

Evidently the arse licking comment was a reference to toadying to men, not a sex act.

Oh ok, so crude comments about women sexually servicing men are fair game then if they’re like allegorical and shit. Righto. What was your problem with drag again?

@MadameButterface using a very well known and oft used phrase to indicate kowtowing to someone is not the same as men denigrating women by hideously caricaturing them, humiliating them and calling them 'fish'. And I rather think you know that

I know hypocrisy when i see it and i’m sure orher people do too :) back atcha

Its interesting that a number of people on here have the same experience of drag, mine was 3 years ago, large city, well known act. Misogynistic jokes and homophobic jokes about lesbians.

Some of you seem to think all drag acts are the same??
It's baffeling to me.

Are all drag king acts the same?? NO.

Some drag queens have never told a joke and would never do stand up..
They're not all the same!
Shocking I know 🙄

Some drag queens/comedians/rappers/photographers/film makers/indie musicians are misogynists - some are racist, some are just arseholes

That doesn’t mean that all drag/comedy/rap/photography/film/indie music is misogynistic, or racist, or made by arseholes

There’s this thing called quality control, you can condemn the bad and still enjoy the good

Unless you’re the sort of person who never condemns people you support even when they’re being arseholes of course

hideously caricaturing them, humiliating them
I don't agree they all do this AT ALL.

All the ones you've seen clearly do this... not the ones I've seen 🤷🏻‍♀️

I'm not saying that some may not do this but you're making out that they ALL do. . When that's not true.

There’s this thing called quality control, you can condemn the bad and still enjoy the good

👏🏻👏🏻

@MadameButterface

FWIW, if it was the arse-licking comment you're referring to, I read that as a reference to kowtowing rather than a sex act, but if it was intended that way then I will happily distance myself from it and agree that it's wrong.

I certainly think that there have been some unpleasant comments from both sides of the debate during this thread, hence my attempt to find some common ground on which both sides could agree.

Your comment about stand-up exemplifies it - I don't know the stand-up in question, but I am aware of many comedians criticising their fellow performers when they think they have crossed a line and public debate being had about the nature of comedy and whether everything is fair game or if there are subjects which should be avoided.

This kind of social self-regulation allows the conversations to be had, for people to voice their thoughts and for those who are offended to kick back.

When organisations such as Pride actively praise and endorse some of the more contentious behaviour on the drag scene, it gives the impression that this is representative of the attitudes and that this is a widely accepted part of drag acts and I don't think that helps the case that some people are making about the nature of the art-form.

Ah soz i must have imagined ppl getting their drag knowledge from lorraine and piers upthread then

Fuck me you're like a dog with a bone.

I used that as one example of how drag queens are treated in mainstream media but boy you are you running with it! I wouldn't have bothered if I had known you were going to chomp down on it and hold on for dear life like that.

@Peter that comment was made at half ten this morning, so nearly 8 hours ago, in reply to someone who didn’t understand why i’d mentioned daytime telly and thought i was being unnecessarily patronising. So (8 hours ago) i explained the context in which i’d made the reference, if that’s perfectly ok with you?

I was being as patronising as i deemed necessary btw :)

@Peter that comment was made at half ten this morning, so nearly 8 hours ago, in reply to someone who didn’t understand why i’d mentioned daytime telly and thought i was being unnecessarily patronising. So (8 hours ago) i explained the context in which i’d made the reference, if that’s perfectly ok with you?

As much as I would have loved to spend the day debating drag online, I have been at work today and have been catching up with this thread and just noticed that it was about the 50th time you had brought up the daytime TV thing after me mentioning it once!

To clarify on the drag King thing, as I obviously haven't spelt it out clearly enough because you keep repeating this as well: I have not said that drag kings don't exist I said that they are not a 'thing' in the same way that queens are. Nowhere near as popular, nowhere near as mainstream (evidently by virtue of the fact that someone like me, who isn't on the scene, hasn't seen much of drag kings - that speaks for itself doesn't it?) Drag queens are the 'default' and drag kings are the twist on that.

Do you think that drag kings are as popular in mainstream culture as drag queens? If not, why do you think that is?

Women have said they don't like drag, that they feel that the drag they have seen takes the piss out of women, that they feel it parodies feminitity.

Stop telling them they are wrong. Women have been told their feelings are wrong forever.