To feel uncomfortable with regards to Drag?

[ShawshanksRedemption]

Am I the only one who feels uncomfortable with Drag?

AIUI Drag came about because women's roles were originally played by men on the stage, and from there it's evolved to have pantomime dames, which is a caricature of women. Drag has now become an art form, a performance, with programmes like RuPaul's Drag Race showing how popular it is, but at it's core it's still a caricature, it's still a parody of women, and it's gaudy, brash and the wit and put downs waspish!

I can't help but feel a bit uncomfortable about it all, maybe it's something I'm reading too much into, but effectively it's men aping women in a very unattractive way (and I'm not just talking the make up here).

Anyone else feel the same? Or should I just embrace it and get over myself?

@PickwickThePlockingDodo and why would wearing a dress stop violent men being violent? Is it because dresses are all girly and feminine and therefore a man who wears one will become girly and feminine too, and everyone knows that fighting and warmongering aren't feminine traits?

For goodness sake.

And no, I won't 'chill out' about men grotesquely aping my sex, making teenage girls cry by ridiculing them, choosing names like Molestia Child and Cheryl Hole, calling women fish... I dunno, maybe I should just put on a dress and calm the fuck down, eh?

Can't believe some of you are so insecure with being a woman that you feel threatened by a bloke dressing up in something that barely resembles a woman. Chill out a bit and don't be so offended by everything.

Would you say this to any other oppressed group? Would you tell a black person who objected to blackface to chill out or that they feel threatened because they are insecure?

The hell you would.

How does putting on a dress help?

Maybe it activates their lady brain.

You might want to think about why people find the idea of a caricature of a woman funny but we don't have the same thing for men.

Well that's bollocks* there are many archetypal caricatures of men from the lecherous perv, to the ineffectual dweeb. Men are constantly portrayed for comic effect as useless hapless twits who can't take care of themselves / children / domestic arrangements. As a stay at home father to three kids I find that archetype annoying and boring. So I don't buy the products it's used to advertise, I don't watch the next movie. Life is full of stuff I don't like.

Taken to it's logical extreme - a reductio ad absurdum - no actor would ever play any part other than themselves. No one would ever be able to make fun of, exaggerate, or lampoon anything other than their immediate experience and environment in case someone somewhere was 'insulted' or' offended'. No one would have ANY fun. A Calvinistic puritanical world of unfun.

While I agree it's just plain rude an unacceptable to deliberately insult people to their face or selectively victimise people who have no overt agenda (arseholes like Tommy Robinson are fair game) I'm afraid I'm with Steven Fry:

“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what?!"

[I saw hate in a graveyard -- Stephen Fry, The Guardian, 5 June 2005]”

*Exclusively male body part used to signify something that is useless, rubbish, or otherwise worthless. How horribly demeaning. I think I just offended myself.

"there are many archetypal caricatures of men from the lecherous perv, to the ineffectual dweeb. "

Yes, many.

And for women, there is one, the loud, obnoxious, overtly sexual fishwife.

Surely you can see the difference.

Actually sandman the adverts who portray men in that manner have just been told to stop doing that.
However you are missing the point, just actually being a man isn't seen as somehow intrinsically funny.

"I've played panto dames several times. I don't feel I was 'dehumanising' anyone. I was playing a larger than life cartoon character."

You might want to think about why people find the idea of a caricature of a woman funny but we don't have the same thing for men.

Addendum: I just noticed you managed skilfully to lose the bit of my post where I said I didn't shave off my beard which when you come down to it is pretty crap move for a drag act. Cameron Mitchell when he played Hedwig in the movie Hedwig and the Angry Inch - which is a great film and I can thoroughly recommend - had to shave several times a day, especially for his close-ups.

The Dame Role in Panto isn't about femininity or womanhood. It's about Male perception of Female femininity and woman hood. The women in the audience laughing at my character weren't laughing at a parody of themselves. They were laughing at the utter crapness of my attempt at 'femininity'.

And for women, there is one, the loud, obnoxious, overtly sexual fishwife.

No. There are LOTS of different archetypal caricatures of women. Nun. Harlot. Earth Mother. Repressed Old Maid. Evil Lesbian...

"They were laughing at the utter crapness of my attempt at 'femininity'."

Is that rigt?

The very fact you come on here and type shit like "addendum" tells us everything we need to know about you.

"Nun. Harlot. Earth Mother. Repressed Old Maid. Evil Lesbian..."

Go on then, name some famous characters that play on those stereotypes.

The very fact you come on here and type shit like "addendum" tells us everything we need to know about you.

You mean like I'm educated beyond a kindergarten level of argument?

Ru Paul's Drag Race is highly misogynistic

You mean like I'm educated beyond a kindergarten level of argument?

Ah good, I was worried we may get through an entire discussion without stooping to "I'm not dumb, you're dumb." Phew.

I was hoping to get through an entire discussion without ad hominem attacks. Naive, I know.

On AIBU, yes, it was a bit naive. I was once called a cunt for asking if it seemed reasonable for the owners of the house I was sitting to leave me with a sofa/beds that smelled like piss and a 6ft sink-pipe full of clogged fat that I dug out with a spoon.

You were mildly called out for being a bit of a ponce on a thread about misogyny; lucky escape really.

Gosh the Sandman you know Latin & everything. I’d say you’re way too clever & educated for the silly little women of mumsnet.

I don’t see drag as mocking femininity, i see it as mocking the gap between external trappings of gender and biological sex. Crudely put, the punchline is ‘it’s a dude’; it highlights that just because someone is wearing shapewear, lingerie, makeup, big hair etc those are not the things that make that someone male or female. As such i’m surpriSed that more mners aren’t fans tbh.

“Calling drag womanface feels quite wrong to me. Blackface mocks the physical characteristics of black people, and was popular during a period of massive disadvantage and oppression of nlack people.”

I agree with this. Mocking people’s very existence is not the same as mocking the arbitrary markers of gender. Drag queens tend to be very very camp gay men, they are men who mainstream society deems unable to perform masculinity sufficiently and by and large these men will have suffered in similar ways to women who decline to perform femininity in whatever way. That is the joke, it is mocking the notion that bio sex and gender performance are always in alignment.

I like drag. It's another art form and a fascinating part of pop culture.

I like drag :) because I like anything that sends up stereotypes, especially the stereotypes that have affected me, which lots of drag does. I don’t like the idea of dresses, makeup etc being a women thing, I like it being used by anyone how they like and especially for satire. We have lots of drag kings where I live! And they’re both very welcome and really popular, but maybe it’s yet to spread outside of the big cities? There is a decent history of women dressing as men in theatre, it’s not just a man-> woman thing .

There might be a minority of misogynistic drag performers, but I’ve only ever seen decent stuff and pretty political stuff. If you see something misogynistic, then do make a complaint - performers will be told off by their managers, it’s not a totalitarian culture! Don’t just sit and stew, do something about it - as I hope we all would in other arenas.

I have made a complaint before (only needed to once) - and it was clear on the intent that this was misogynistic stuff. I complained, they got other complaints, their manager eventually fired them (and it wasn’t popular with venues).

Not worth writing off a whole genre of performance if you haven’t seen it and haven’t seen a range of it, or ever writing off a whole group of people.

These threads always end up being so black and white and rarely is anything that way

MadameButterface had worded it better than me. The drag I like sends up the very things that have tbh oppressed me as a young girl and woman, I love it

It's not mocking or disrespectful of women in any way. It's a celebration of male femininity, taken to an extreme that is so far removed from biological womanhood that you really can't compare the two. Men that really want to pass as women often don't do drag exactly because it is so exaggerated. It's almost best to think of as third gender or genderless because it's absolutely not meant to be representative of cis women. Let people have a nice time.

And drag is NOTHING like black face, to suggest so shows a real lack of understanding of both drag and the racial dynamics involved in a white person mimicking a black person.

Funnily enough...no-one claims that pretending to be Black or Indian is artistic, funny or a "tribute".

Let's turn this on its head: what does drag do for the advancement of women? If the answer is "nothing, it's not about women at all, it's purely for the benefit of the men in drag" then it's exactly as bad as blackface.

It's not mocking or disrespectful of women in any way.

As a woman, I disagree. I feel that it is mocking women. The comedy breasts, the exaggerated makeup, and especially the bitchiness. The way they speak about women (calling them 'fish' etc) getting women up on the stage and then saying 'hilarious' horrible things to them etc. They are pretending to be women when they are 'in character'. They are not saying 'this is what men are like' are they?

It's really offensive and as a woman I allowed to dislike it and find it disrespectful and mocking.

Let's turn this on its head: what does drag do for the advancement of women?

Exactly. And the answer is... Nothing.