To feel uncomfortable with regards to Drag?

[ShawshanksRedemption]

Am I the only one who feels uncomfortable with Drag?

AIUI Drag came about because women's roles were originally played by men on the stage, and from there it's evolved to have pantomime dames, which is a caricature of women. Drag has now become an art form, a performance, with programmes like RuPaul's Drag Race showing how popular it is, but at it's core it's still a caricature, it's still a parody of women, and it's gaudy, brash and the wit and put downs waspish!

I can't help but feel a bit uncomfortable about it all, maybe it's something I'm reading too much into, but effectively it's men aping women in a very unattractive way (and I'm not just talking the make up here).

Anyone else feel the same? Or should I just embrace it and get over myself?

Ah soz i must have imagined ppl getting their drag knowledge from lorraine and piers upthread then

Except I didn’t! Omg are you trying to gaslight me? That’s the sort of thing men have been doing to women for centuries!

Internet Strawman: a game two or more can play :)

@MadameButterface it's a seven page thread. You did not specify that you were replying to a specific post or poster when you made the daytime TV comment.

So no, I'm not trying to gaslight you.

Calling drag womanface feels quite wrong to me. Blackface mocks the physical characteristics of black people

And putting on fake hips, fake boobs and ridiculous OTT hair and makeup doesn't mock the physical characteristics of women?

(BTW, I'm just playing devil's advocate. I love RuPaul's Drag Race, mainly for the fashion design)

Well maybe next time you decide someone is being ‘childish and petty’ check for context? Things are often more complex and with a richer history than is immediately apparent to those with limited familiarity, gosh imagine that

There’s also the person who is insistent drag kings ‘aren’t really a thing’ despite several people saying that they have seen them with their very own eyes :)

As for the argument which seems to boil down to ‘i say this as a feminist and so if you contradict me it means you are anti feminist’ that whole stance is just nonsense. It makes no sense when choosy choice feminists say it in support of strip clubs and it makes no sense here.

LaVieilleHarpie
And remember, ladies - never criticise the menz. Even when they take the piss out of you. I mean, wouldn't it be AWFUL if they couldn't do their crappy 'art' at your expense?!

Roozy123
@LaVieilleHarpie genuinly curious; Do you feel this way about drag kings?

LaVieilleHarpie
Of course not. Punching up isn't the same as punching down.

huh!? So.... men shouldn't do drag but ..women can??

I think it depends on the man and the act.

A man whole wants to play at being a feirce and fabulous woman, tell some jokes and dress is a way he feels he can't in real life - I don't see the problem. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

A sexist man who looks down at woman and sees drag as a way to take the piss out of them. Or thinks "woman" is something to laugh at. Not on.

Not very funny comic who dresses as a woman to boost humor in act (Mrs brown) also not OK.

@Heartshapedbox11

I agree, The drag queens I've watched on many shows 98% are beautiful, very talented and great acts. . I've never felt not once that they're "taking the piss" out of women or felt offended at all.

Alot you can tell is art! They don't wear the breast plates some don't even wear wigs!
I also love hearing their stories how they got into drag and why they may wear or not wear certain things.
For example sasha velour from RUPD was a bald drag queen... he done this because his mother became ill and lost all her hair and he wanted to show her how you can be beautiful bald.

Alot I've seen in drag are stunning!! The ones that have the over the top make up are normally the comedy queens.

I literally couldn't care less about drag queens' sob stories. Don't care for their 'heartwarming' reasons for doing so. They're STILL putting on womanface, and mimicking and mocking women. Just cause it makes some dude feel better doesn't make it any less offensive.

But you're okay with women doing it to men??

“Punching up isn't the same as punching down.”

Again, another example of someone making out something is simple and uncomplicated when it really isn't

Drag ball culture, houses and families in the US (which is a much bigger influence on modern drag than les dawson shuffling his tits about) is rooted in the experiences of young men, almost without exception poor and of colour, disowned by their communities for being gay and unable/unwilling to perform correctly the stereotype of masculinity required by their specific background (in itself problematic, often hyper masculine and rooted in violence and gang culture), so rejected twice effectively, coming together in mutual support. The history of drag balls was escapism in a love of fashion and queens particularly emulated rich white women of new york. So who is punching up here? When you talk about men vs women, obviously it looks simple. But when you talk about the history, and it’s young poor gay black men often living with HIV in a country with no healthcare vs very rich white women, it’s less clear. Not that there was much punching anyhow, more emulation and aspiration. But please do carry on oversimplifying matters from a position of relative ignorance :)

I watched Pose as well - it was good

I still dislike drags view of women though

Why not take the piss out of the rich white MEN who have fucking INVENTED homophobia?

Naaaah. Much easier and more 'fun' to do it to women, innit.

I’m not talking about Pose gordys, couldn’t get into that, i’m talking about the real people Pose was based on :) cool you enjoyed it tho

@LaVieilleHarpie .. drag kings?

Maybe it’s not about taking the piss out of anyone lavielle, i’m not talking about pantomime dames here, i’m talking about people who have been shut out of both the elite closed shop that is rich white masculinity and the considerably less elite stereotype of poor black masculinity choosing to occasionally perform femininity for their own and others’ enjoyment while still being clear that they are men not women

If we’re playing ‘why concern yourself with this thing and not this thing’, why are you here moaning about drag queens when we have two serial adulterers, proven liars and alleged abusers of women in power in the two most powerful nations in the west? Come on chop chop no one’s allowed to do anything trivial while white elitist patriarchy still stands undismantled

Maybe it’s not about taking the piss out of anyone

So the drag queens ridiculing teenage lesbians for their lack of femininity, the ones who call women fish, the ones whose sexist 'jokes' and attire exaggerate damaging female stereotypes... They're not taking the piss out of anyone?

why are you here moaning about drag queens when we have two serial adulterers, proven liars and alleged abusers of women in power in the two most powerful nations in the west?

How do you know posters here aren't campaigning against these people? It's perfectly possible to care about more than one thing at once, you know.

To say all drag is about humiliating teenage girls is the same thing as saying all rap music is about calling women bitches and hoes

I haven’t seen such things but unlike the person upthread who doesn’t believe in drag kings, i’ll take your word for it as a person here in good faith, and condemn it - that’s not what i’m about. Art forms don’t have to be perfect to be enjoyed though - i’ve enjoyed many films that fail the bechdel test and i expect you have too.

It’s funny how you seem convinced that if someone is a drag queen they cannot also be serious and progressive about other political issues, while being ever so affronted when i assume the same about you isn’t it

@MadameButterface I tend not to get affronted by strangers on the internet. Down that road, madness lies. I do however say so if I disagree with someone - that's not the same as being affronted.

I have not said, anywhere, that 'all drag is about humiliating teenage girls'. It's something some drag queens do. Just as some but not all use terms like 'fish' to describe women.

However, all drag acts are complicit in the denigration of women, because all drag acts grotesquely parody women.

I'm well aware that not all art/artists are perfect. I'm a big Smiths/Morrissey fan, for example, with all that entails However I loathe the things Morrissey stands for, and say so.

Drag makes me, and very many other woman, feel uncomfortable and/or downright angry. I'm not saying you shouldn't watch it and enjoy it, because that would be ridiculous. What I am saying is that I look forward to the day when aping women in such a derogatory fashion is seen as socially unacceptable as aping other oppressed groups.

Oh it's alright that he puts on a wig, fake hips and tits and struts about the stage parodying women like an idiot - often using sexist tropes to boot. Cause he's like, totes FABULOUS and SO progressive about OTHER issues, so that's alright then!

Let's turn this on its head: what does drag do for the advancement of women?

Can anyone answer this yet?

I'm very uncomfortable with it too, OP. It's misogynistic.

“Let's turn this on its head: what does drag do for the advancement of women?

Can anyone answer this yet?”

It’s been touched on several times that at the heart of drag is the lampshading that the outer trappings of gender performance are an illusion and nothing to do with bio sex

Something feminists are in agreement with i would have thought

“Oh it's alright that he puts on a wig, fake hips and tits and struts about the stage parodying women like an idiot - often using sexist tropes to boot. Cause he's like, totes FABULOUS and SO progressive about OTHER issues, so that's alright then!

Went for an evening out once with friends for a birthday. Ticketed event with meal and started off a really nice evening. There was a drag act just after the dinner and the man was very offensive. Maybe a handful of people laughed at him and he kept saying we were a tough crowd.
I’ve seen a few in my time but this one was the absolute worst. He insulted members of the audience, what they were wearing and a man who was quite overweight and it clearly made him feel uncomfortable by saying he couldn’t fit on his knee.
The way they act mocks women and I feel if we did similar to any groups, they’d be upset about it. There’s not a woman I know who acts as OTT as a queen, and although I know that’s part of the act, it’s not something I can sit there and enjoy watching.

Go lick their Faaaabulous arses while you're at it - I'm sure they'll love it

What's wrong with you?