To feel uncomfortable with regards to Drag?

[ShawshanksRedemption]

Am I the only one who feels uncomfortable with Drag?

AIUI Drag came about because women's roles were originally played by men on the stage, and from there it's evolved to have pantomime dames, which is a caricature of women. Drag has now become an art form, a performance, with programmes like RuPaul's Drag Race showing how popular it is, but at it's core it's still a caricature, it's still a parody of women, and it's gaudy, brash and the wit and put downs waspish!

I can't help but feel a bit uncomfortable about it all, maybe it's something I'm reading too much into, but effectively it's men aping women in a very unattractive way (and I'm not just talking the make up here).

Anyone else feel the same? Or should I just embrace it and get over myself?

“Are you saying that drag is nothing to do with women?”

Are you saying that the trappings of femininity are the same thing as being a woman?

Are you saying that rigid gender roles only oppress women? (Yeah yeah peanut gallery i know we suffer most. But patriarchy hurts men too and all that, particularly camp men)

As in the type of guy who would call his mate 'a fat c*nt' as a joke. They're not likely to be offended by this IMO.

I can't imagine a load of blokes flocking to go and watch a woman dressed and acting as a caricature of a stereotypical neanderthal, meathead, vulgar man? A woman getting blokes up on the stage and ripping the piss out of them and them just laughing along because its oh so hilarious.

I can't imagine Piers Morgan having several drag kings on GMB and giggling along sycophantically as they give him an offensive 'drag King' name (a la Lorraine Kelly).

As in the type of guy who would call his mate 'a fat cnt' as a joke. They're not likely to be offended by this IMO.*

Yes, when it's blokes doing to to each other.

I don't know if they would be happy to stand on stage and be called a fat cunt by a woman though. Different kettle of fish innit.

Well drag kings are a thing, whether people can imagine them or not, I don’t really know what else to tell you

I guess this paucity of imagination is what happens when you get your knowledge of stuff off daytime tv tho 🤷🏻‍♀️

I’m here trying to think what other cultural phenomena it’d be ok to spout forth about purely off the back of what i’d seen through the prism of piers morgan or lorraine kelly and a bit of a blank i’ll be honest

^drawing a bit of a blank

Well drag kings are a thing, whether people can imagine them or not

They're not reeeeeeallly a thing though are they?

There is no 'drag King' mainstream telly show.
Drag kings arent routinely being used in advertising campaigns.
Drag kings arent reading stories to kids in the library in order to give children 'queer role models'.
Men aren't falling over themselves to tell everyone how much they just love drag kings.

I started to watch RuPauls drag race when I was pregnant with my son (who is 5 soon) and I've been hooked to the show ever since!!
I've watched every series over and over, alot of them are so talented and I love listening to their stories and how they got into drag.

My MIL cannot stand it, she didn't want me to watch it when my kids were born with them in the room!? She would just sit their saying "yuck... omg" etc.

It's not some people's cup of tea I guess.
I don't think it's very far to umbrella the whole drag community and talk about these men like they're all the same, have the same acts of drag looks because that's so far from the truth.

Just my personal opinion. Also.. one of my favourites attached, Valentina

I’m here trying to think what other cultural phenomena it’d be ok to spout forth about purely off the back of what i’d seen through the prism of piers morgan or lorraine kelly and a bit of a blank i’ll be honest

Purely?

Do you understand the concept of 'an example'?

An example I used because breakfast daytime TV is probably the epitome of what one would call 'mainstream'. And drag queens calling Lorraine Kelly 'Morning Gloria' on ITV at 9am while she laughs along at how funny that is, is not something I can imagine happening the other way around.

That's all

"I wonder how well a woman doing a stereotype of a really 'blokey' man would go down ?"

Huh?... like... a drag king does?
They're a loads of drag king shows in london, that most do... exactly that lol.

Drag queens AND drag queens, many have names that some could be offended by.. but both sides. Not just drag queens. Just a SMALL example of some drag kings.
Also just to point out a few years back some were on this morning lol.

"This collective is made up of ten performers, two producers and two directors, so they’re more of a theatre company. All are “queer women and non-binaries, radical feminists with a great sense of humour”. Drag King Cole, Cesar Jentley, Scott Free, Thrustin Timberlake, Loose Willis, Izzy Aman, Victor Victorious, Mr Goldenballs, John Travulva and Johnny Gash are the kings in this royal family. You’ll catch them at at the Glory and Royal Vauxhall Tavern, though they've been seen in the halls of the Soho Theatre and the Yard Theatre as well."

Society doesn't say that. At all. Women in our society are free to ignore stereotypically "feminine" dress, and no one bats an eyelid - no one thinks they are not "acceptably female" either

ROFL. Try dressing like a butch lesbian for a —lifetime— few weeks. People do bat eyelids, if only that was all they did. I have had many, many lectures about how unacceptable my femaleness is.

They're not reeeeeeallly a thing though are they? what!? Lol.

Of course they are!! Just because YOU haven't come across a show or seen them on tv or in theatres or bars performing doesn't mean they don't exist or aren't "really a thing".

They're are many, many, films that have women dressed as men in them!
It doesn't have to have a mainstream show to be real. Lol.

Try dressing like a butch lesbian for a —lifetime— few weeks. People do bat eyelids, if only that was all they did. I have had many, many lectures about how unacceptable my femaleness is.

That's so shit and so sad. .

It doesn't have to have a mainstream show to be real. Lol.

No, but I am comparing the popularity of drag queens and drag kings, not whether drag kings are real. As I said, drag queens have their own mainstream TV shows, are feauturing in numerous mainstream adverts, are reading stories to kids in libraries, have women flocking to get their photos taken with them and plastered all over social media, have children emulating them (boak) etc.

Drag kings don't have any of this, at least not in any significant way.

Why do you think that is? Why are drag queens so much more popular than drag kings?

You put " They're not reeeeeeallly a thing though are they?"

Yes... yes they are really a thing.
There are plenty of films women are dressed up as men.
Music videos women dressed as men.
Drag kings on talk shows.
Drag kings in sold out theatres performing.

They're very popular, Alot of hype (in my opinion) was made when RuPauls drag race came on the scene years ago and made drag queens more popular.
He made this show because he himself is a drag queen so it's obvious that's the route he would take.

It's like loads of things- ones just more popular than the other.
In some people's worlds they prefer drag kings and drag queens not so much. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Also I forgot to add that it's not just drag queens reading to kids. Drag queens also do it

"In the world of «Drag Queen Story Time», children are encouraged to
imagine a world where people can present as they wish, and where dress
up is real and the possibilities are endless.

DRAG QUEEN STORY TIME

Each event will feature a different Drag Queen or Drag King."

Many places state "drag queens, but also drag kings are involved in this. By reading this thread it's obvious alot of people are not aware of this.

Drag kings also do it**
(Damn no edit option 🙄)

@MadameButterface

What drag are you familiar with @Dutch1e?

Oh come on, now we're at the point of saying "not all drag is like that"? Really?

Well if you’re going to make comments like ‘not really the same thing as drag though is it’ perhaps you could be specific about which drag? I’m sorry it’s inconvenient and awkward for your argument that not all drag is the same but it’s a fact.

Lots of statements that drag is misogynist and awful, not many facts to back it up really though. It’s almost as if people have decided what their opinion is based on what other people think, rather than what they think themselves.

And remember, ladies - never criticise the menz. Even when they take the piss out of you. I mean, wouldn't it be AWFUL if they couldn't do their crappy 'art' at your expense?!

What's the world coming to, with all these broads not falling over themselves to lick their arses and excitedly gush over how FAAAABULOUS they are... shocking innit.

@LaVieilleHarpie genuinly curious; Do you feel this way about drag kings?

Of course not. Punching up isn't the same as punching down.

Really weird how people produce these strawmen arguments when they run out of facts

Everyone who is gender critical should at least do themselves the favour of finding out more about drag before deciding it’s the devil, as it’s also pretty gender critical as an art form.

In fact RuPaul himself has in the past faced criticism from trans activists, he and many other old school queens happily used the term ‘tr*nny’ to refer to themselves for years but no longer do so in the public domain largely at the behest of young woke folk of the type who tend to be keen to reclaim the word queer despite the very negative connotations that word has for older LGBT people who grew up hearing it as a slur. Then there was the controversy when he stated he had reservations about trans women who had started transitioning for real on RPDR, comparing it to people competing in the Olympics on performance enhancing drugs.

It’s simply false and inaccurate to frame all drag as being homogenous and subscribing to a particular agenda.

All this stuff’s on google btw if anyone fancies turning daytime telly off and doing some actual reading.

@MadameButterface

Lots of statements that drag is misogynist and awful, not many facts to back it up really though

What 'facts' do you require? Men using misogynist language to describe women? Humiliating teenage girls for not being 'feminine' enough? The FACT that women feel uncomfortable by men grotesquely parodying them for lols?

All this stuff’s on google btw if anyone fancies turning daytime telly off and doing some actual reading

Why be so childish and petty? There has been some really heartfelt, intelligent discussion here as to why very many women do not feel happy about drag. Insinuating that we're all a bit dim and would rather spend our time watching shit TV than reading is insulting. Please don't dismiss what women are saying or attempt to silence us on the grounds we're ignorant and a bit stupid - that's the sort of thing men have been doing to women for centuries.