AIBU to call SS about my neighbour against their will?

[SinkGirl]

Sorry, I am a bit shaken up right now.

DH and I were just on our way to pick our twins up from nursery and I saw a woman standing on the pavement outside an elderly neighbours house. He’s a sweet guy who always waves and says hello (but I’m so caught up in my own shit that I’ve never properly spoken to him which I now feel awful about).

Next thing I know, I see she’s picking him up off the floor - he had fallen and was hidden behind his car so I didn’t see him. I rushed over and his hands are covered in blood so I dashed home and grabbed a first aid kit while she got him indoors.

His house is in a terrible state. It obviously hasn’t been cleaned for many, many years. It smells strongly of ammonia. And there’s stuff everywhere. The neighbour who helped him said she wanted to call an ambulance but he refused.

He sat down in his armchair and pointed out the photo of his wife and said she died two years ago. Her stuff is still all over the lounge including clothes on an airer. He said he sleeps in the chair so he’s next to her photo and urn. It was absolutely heartbreaking.

He told me he’s 90. I asked if he has anyone who comes in to help him. He said no, “me and the cat like being by ourselves”. He said his daughter comes and stays every Saturday and leaves on Sunday but I don’t believe him. There were Mother’s Day cards on the shelf. If his daughter is visiting every weekend then she’s obviously not even able to clean the house at all - no judgement, I don’t know the situation at all, but it’s really not a suitable environment for anyone, let alone a frail old man.

I cleaned him up and he had a few skinned patches on his hands but nothing serious. He told me nothing else hurt but was very much of the “I don’t want to be a bother” school - although he was very grateful for the help, and very talkative, I heard all about how he was in the army, all about his wife.

The other neighbour was saying I always invite you for coffee but you never come - he said he can’t leave his cat. He does go out though, he even drives.

I can’t in good conscience ignore what I’ve just seen, but he says he doesn’t want any help. But is he just saying that? DH says I should try and contact his daughter rather than rushing in and calling SS as it’s their responsibility but how would I even do that?

His clothes were filthy and now covered in blood. I don’t know what to do.

I wrote down my name, DH’s name, our house number and my mobile number but i very much doubt he will come to us for help. I wrote it on an envelope next to his chair.

If he falls in there and can’t get up nobody would know until his daughter comes (if indeed that’s even true).

AIBU to call SS right now? He would know it’s me I’m sure, but I don’t know if he really doesn’t want help or is just saying that.

Knock on on Saturday and see if his daughter is there?

Well he hadn’t said he doesn’t want SS involved because I didn’t dare mention them but he said he doesn’t want anyone coming in to help. I appreciate why some people are frustrated that I haven’t just called, but I can’t ignore all the people saying not to call either, plus the impression I’ve gotten from him.

I personally think that the key might lie in this smoke alarm issue - he said he was going to call them to replace his alarms anyway. Whether he will or not I don’t know but I know that’s help he is happy to receive. If he doesn’t call them then I will see if I can arrange it - I suspect the situation has changed in the last 10 years somewhat, and hopefully with their experience they will know what to do if anything.

Please phone the Salvation Army OP.

If you explain the situation they would go in gently and make it seem like they are just popping round to chat to the elderly in the area.

They are very good and will be gentle but still practical in getting him as much help as he will allow.

Even though they have their roots as a religious charity they are NOT at all evangelical and they really do help people.

It’s a difficult one. My dad’s in his 70’s and is by no means frail, but since my mum died 10 years ago, his house has got worse and worse. He’s a bit of a hoarder and never cleans. If a stranger went in, they’d probably judge me for not keeping on top of the place, however, a) he will not accept help, and as he’s completely compus mentus, I have no right to dictate how he lives, and, b) I’m disabled and struggle to keep my own house up to scratch, let alone his as well. Whilst someone has the capacity to accept or decline help, there’s very little that can be done, unless the property is in such decline that it could pose a health risk to anyone else (rats etc). I know how frustrating it is first hand unfortunately!

Funnily enough we had a dead rat in our garden last week - not sure it’s related though as we are across the street but suspect our cats killed it and brought it back.

I’m amazed the neighbour hasn’t called environmental health based on what she said about the smell in her house but not sure they’d do anything anyway.

I don’t judge his daughter based on today, I have no idea of the situation although it seems very odd that she brings her laundry to his house to wash given how filthy everything is. I saw the washing machine and I wouldn’t want to open it.

I will call various places for advice tomorrow and see what they say.

Are you worried that SS may say that he shouldn’t stay at home ? He is a vulnerable adult so should at least be flagged up to SS, but TBH SS are so overwhelmed and there is such pressure on places that I’m sure there is zero likelihood of them whisking him off to a care home, particularly as he can obviously still make his own decisions.

How about SSAFA, as he's ex army? www.ssafa.org.uk/get-help/supporting-older-veterans

Hope you're ok OP

If he says his daughter comes at the weekend, could you and/or the other neighbour try and get to see her and have a talk? If you go later on Saturday or early Sunday she should be there if what he has told you is true.

I would ring safeguarding. It's very likely that they will assess him as having capacity and if he refuses any support there is nothing they can do. However, I would prefer to get the experts involved if I had any concerns. It is their job after all.

My granddad has paraphrenia and still has capacity. He lives home alone since my nan went to a care home. He keeps the house immaculate but his physical health is poor, as well as his mental health. He might have psychosis but he still has the capacity to make decisions about how he wants to live and where he wants to live, even if some of those decisions are concerning to his loved ones.

I would never advise someone not to ring safeguarding if they have any concerns over a vulnerable person though. I'm not sure why anyone would advise the OP against it. It is not for the OP to decide whether or not he has capacity. Leave it to the experts.

The neighbour is going to try and catch her as we won’t be here much and not sure what time she arrives.

I’ve just filled in the online request for a fire safety check for him from the fire service - I’m really hoping he just thinks they’re doing automatically because it’s due. I feel a bit shitty about it but it needs doing and he’s happy with it being done so it was the best first thing to do I think.

Then I’ll call some charities for advice tomorrow and see what they say.

I’m okay, thanks for asking - just feel sad really and don’t want to make a mistake

The fire service will refer to social services anyway if its how you describe.

There has also been a slight change in approach to self neglect more recently. Previously if the person seemed to have capacity and was refusing support then it was very much 'nothing we can do, case closed' . Now there is a push to understand that many people who self neglect don't do it through genuine choice (some do though) but more because they are scared/ embarrassed of what will happen if they let people help them.

The message at the moment is not just to close but to try and work sensitively and gain trust to establish if it's someone who genuinely doesn't care they live in shit or if someone just doesn't want to accept the reality that they need a bit of help.

I wonder if his daughter has problems? Can't understand her not doing bits for him it getting help?

If he's 90, his daughter could be 74! Perhaps she isn't able to assist him much.

@goldfinchfan I'm a social worker with older adults, I know exactly what they can and can't do. They'll access his capacity, if he has capacity they'll talk to him about options and support they can provide. If he don't want any of it they'll explore why. If he's found to be self-neglecting, this is now a category under safeguarding and the case will not just be closed. He'll likely be discussed at a multi agency meeting and support provided to him by someone he is more likely to build a relationship with, such as an advocate, befriender or someone from the GP surgery. They may do nothing more than check in with him (on the phone or on the doorstep) and get told to F.O owhich is his right. But he'll be offered a repeat visit by the fire service and the door will be open for him to access support should he wish in the future. He'll be given choice. His choice maybe to live as he is, or he may wish to change but be scared, he'll be given information from which he can make a choice.

Fluffsmum glad to see another social worker backing that up.

I'm really pleased that there has been a change of thinking over self neglect more recently, I've been saying for years that Mental Capacity was being used as an excuse for lazy social work/ closing cases and that there needed to be more balance.

He also may not want his daughter to help him, or let her do so. Or maybe she has her own health problems, or an elderly husband/disabled child to care for. Or maybe he treated her like shit all his life and she doesnt want to be his carer. Or maybe she resents being expected to cook and clean for him because he's got 50k in the bank and refuses to get a cleaner in.

So many possibilities.

In the UK social services are the way forward for getting social care . They have specific social workers who specialise in helping older adults and so know exactly what they can offer (and what is not on offer). I have found them extremely helpful.

On a thread about caring for your family when they get old, everyone was adamant that it was better to get the professionals involved for your own mum and dad , that the burden would be too great. Weirdly here some people seems to think the best solution to helping what is a complete stranger even if he is very nice would be popping in with meals and cleaning and generally tying yourself into this situation.

The fact that he is a stranger IS relevant- you don't know who he is, what his capacity is, what his family are like, if he has early dementia- anything. He might be lovely and a great person to help, he may have problems or even not be a very pleasant person. Who knows? I would treat him like any other neighbour- get to know him slowly and don't throw yourself into the situation.

I would also phone adult social care. Just because he has a cat and keeps saying he doesn't want to trouble anyone doesn't mean he shouldn't at least have the offer of care, medical attention and somewhere safe and warm to live (if he so chooses).

The thing is Social Services differ all over the country.
The help you will get in one place won't be there in another.

I have knowledge of these issues from the other side...
I have been a service user and a great listener to carers talking and also neighbours. I have seen what can actually happen.

I know he won't be forced into having help if he doesn't want it but I also know that there are far too many people needing help who do NOT get it.
I have also learnt a lot about social workers and it is not all good! They are just as flawed as everyone else and while they like to talk their job up and they can be good I have seen the cutbacks take precious help away form elderly people and leave them in a terrible mess.

It will depend on where the OP lives and you have to agree they cannot force her neighbour to let carers in if he doesn't want them.

I know of one case where carers were reporting neglect and abuse from a relative over and over and it was almost a year before this person was rescued from her abusive relative.
So my expectations are not that high and I know lots of other cases too.
Poeple seem to think SS will solve the problem and I wanted to point out that they might not.

I have stated twice that the neighbour would do well to go around with tea and biscuits and be a friend which is what you are suggesting.
The only point you make different to mine is about the fire service.
Otherwise I know as much as you do and have made the same point.

Also SS love meetings.......to discuss service users or potential service users

"In the UK social services are the way forward for getting social care ."

If you are lucky and the budget allows.
Mostly SS like to sit and talk and frontline is often very difficult to provide.
I wish people knew it isn't that easy to get help.
You are correct that a neighbour won't know what they are getting into but really a cup of tea for a 90 year old....what a sad place this country is.

Thank you for trying to help him OP, it's a very tricky situation to manage.

He may be sleeping in his chair because actually he can't manage the stairs anymore, or maybe he has back issues, or it could be exactly as he says.
He may not want to jeopardise his DD's visits by letting neighbours get involved.

A friend was in a similar situation, their neighbour's home was dangerously squalid, he was sleeping on a kitchen chair, the heating had long given up the ghost, and several times the poor man set his sleeves on fire trying to cook.
Together with another neighbour they did get SS involved, who tried to help but were mostly rebuffed.
Amazingly he recently moved into a home of his own choice, mostly after making a few day visits and getting hot meals at every visit!

It's a fine line to tread between helping and interfering, but it sounds like he really needs someone looking out for him.

I'll apologise now as I haven't read the whole thread, just your OP.

But I was the closest , emotionally, of all of our family to my Grandfather. He was living like this. I visited as often as he permitted (he often refused due to 'not feeling up to it' ).

But he would not let me help him. He wouldnt wear an alarm, let me cook or clean or take him to dentists and doctors.

He was my grandad, I adored him , I wouldn't have ever gone against his wishes.

But all I wanted was for someone to step in. Every time he went for an appointment I willed them to notice and intervene.

In the end, someone did and he passed away warm and clean in a lovely hospice with me holding his hand.

Please step in. You will not be stepping on anyone's toes. If the family are annoyed they dont deserve this sweet old man. Sometimes we need someone to do what we can't.

It is amazing that you care enough to do something

Thank you everyone for your advice and input, conflicting as it is, I think all the thoughts I’ve had on the matter are reflected here somewhere. I don’t think I’m doing anything out of the ordinary really, I think anyone would be very concerned if they’d walked into that situation today.

His mobility is very limited - he shuffles, very slowly. Neighbour says he hasn’t been upstairs for years, and I’m sure he can’t get upstairs. It was haunting seeing his wife’s chair there, her clothes on the airer - I’m sure it brings him comfort and they’ve obviously been in that house a very long time (decor looks 60s / 70s at a guess).

I’m having a really stressful time right now, in the middle of trying to secure funding for my boys to access special education plus getting next to no sleep, and yet I’m sitting here awake worrying about this situation. After our first short conversation this morning I was all ready to rush in and call SS but I feel much less sure that this is the right course after our second conversation.

Let’s be honest, I’ve lived here two years and I’ve never said more than hello to him so I’m hardly righteous in this situation - I genuinely did think though that he had carers and nurses going in every day. Until recently when we saw him he looked quite chipper, but DH and were saying only this morning that when we’ve seen him lately he was moving a bit slower and didn’t look as well.

And as awful as it sounds, I really don’t know how long I can spend in that house at a time - it’s quite overwhelming, particularly the smell. That sounds really awful I know.

Going to sleep on it and try to figure out what to do tomorrow. I don’t want to ambush him in his own house. I just want to make sure he’s accessing whatever he could be comfortable with and maximise his quality of life. He was talking about how he wants to get his telegram, but I worry about how the state of the place will impact his health. But then I also know he’s an adult and it’s not my call to make, but then this is the whole point of adult safeguarding isn’t it? To speak up if you see something worrying? I’m just going round in circles here.

Thanks again everyone. Will think it all over.

Does this man own his home? If he does & he is also deemed to have mental capacity then his GP surgery CANNOT get involved unless he wants them too, same with Social Services.

It is really sad but my Nan lived in a dirty messy home with poor personal hygiene by choice & refused our repeated offers of help.
(Eventually she lost capacity as she developed severe psychosis and was sectioned by her doctors).

My Nan used to fall & even get infections & would still refuse to go to hospital as was her right.

I think you could call Age UK or even call Social Services for advice but I'm afraid that things won't improve for this man unless he really wants them to.
Help is available but he has to want that help (& often, to be prepared to pay for it).

All the social workers on this thread (I think?) are saying let social services know and let them make that decision.

At the end of the day as you say yourself you barely have a relationship with this man. The worst that can happen is that he's annoyed at you, in which case you haven't lost much but at least you know you did what you could. On the other hand it might be the first step to helping him live his last few years as comfortably as possible.