AIBU to call SS about my neighbour against their will?

[SinkGirl]

Sorry, I am a bit shaken up right now.

DH and I were just on our way to pick our twins up from nursery and I saw a woman standing on the pavement outside an elderly neighbours house. He’s a sweet guy who always waves and says hello (but I’m so caught up in my own shit that I’ve never properly spoken to him which I now feel awful about).

Next thing I know, I see she’s picking him up off the floor - he had fallen and was hidden behind his car so I didn’t see him. I rushed over and his hands are covered in blood so I dashed home and grabbed a first aid kit while she got him indoors.

His house is in a terrible state. It obviously hasn’t been cleaned for many, many years. It smells strongly of ammonia. And there’s stuff everywhere. The neighbour who helped him said she wanted to call an ambulance but he refused.

He sat down in his armchair and pointed out the photo of his wife and said she died two years ago. Her stuff is still all over the lounge including clothes on an airer. He said he sleeps in the chair so he’s next to her photo and urn. It was absolutely heartbreaking.

He told me he’s 90. I asked if he has anyone who comes in to help him. He said no, “me and the cat like being by ourselves”. He said his daughter comes and stays every Saturday and leaves on Sunday but I don’t believe him. There were Mother’s Day cards on the shelf. If his daughter is visiting every weekend then she’s obviously not even able to clean the house at all - no judgement, I don’t know the situation at all, but it’s really not a suitable environment for anyone, let alone a frail old man.

I cleaned him up and he had a few skinned patches on his hands but nothing serious. He told me nothing else hurt but was very much of the “I don’t want to be a bother” school - although he was very grateful for the help, and very talkative, I heard all about how he was in the army, all about his wife.

The other neighbour was saying I always invite you for coffee but you never come - he said he can’t leave his cat. He does go out though, he even drives.

I can’t in good conscience ignore what I’ve just seen, but he says he doesn’t want any help. But is he just saying that? DH says I should try and contact his daughter rather than rushing in and calling SS as it’s their responsibility but how would I even do that?

His clothes were filthy and now covered in blood. I don’t know what to do.

I wrote down my name, DH’s name, our house number and my mobile number but i very much doubt he will come to us for help. I wrote it on an envelope next to his chair.

If he falls in there and can’t get up nobody would know until his daughter comes (if indeed that’s even true).

AIBU to call SS right now? He would know it’s me I’m sure, but I don’t know if he really doesn’t want help or is just saying that.

I think your plan of speaking to the other neighbour and then possibly contacting Age Concern is good one.
Going in and cleaning for him, isn't as good a plan. Not least because he doesn't know who you are, you don't know if he is always lucid and you also have no idea what he has lying around the house. The most extreme risk is that his family could end up accusing you of taking money, jewellery, etc.
Your instinct to help is great and with the other neighbour hopefully you can both work out a plan to make his life a little brighter

Call them. I've been the person to call several times because of my job and it's not nice but the way I look at it, I don't ever want to think "if only I called social services". Social services have always been pleased that we have tipped them off, in every case they have stepped in and made a positive contribution to their lives

I'd try and get his daughters number and speak to her. Also if you think he could be looking unwell call the doctor to try and get his doctor to do a home visit to check him over. As soon as the doctor steps inside his house he or she would see the conditions and do the SS referral

Ps one person was even allowed to take their cat with them into the care home

Definitely call Adult Social Care, this is a safeguarding issue. There’s no point calling the GP.

He will be assessed and will probably get some care in his own home, which is what he needs. The guys at Adult Social Care are the experts and will know how best to help.

Poor old man.

The fact that he has a daughter makes it even more sad.

He may not get on with his daughter, or she may live miles away. There’s no way of knowing.

You seem like a lovely neighbour.

I would call social services for some advice, say you're happy to help out in a neighbourly way but are a bit worried.

They can offer some help or do some checks. At the end of the day if he has enough of his capacity then they will deem him competent enough to decide, but at least he'll be on their radar.

Call adult social care and express your concerns about what you have seen.

Be very careful about taking on a more supportive role than you can offer.

If he fell then it becomes a safeguarding issue and it is in the remit of Social Services to make sure he is appropriately supported and protected. Having said that I think GPs must be used to finding people of that generation in that situation and refusing help, and take a pragmatic or is it uncaring approach.

Father in law fell and was on the floor 12 hours before MIL called the doctor. She was petrified that social services would get involved and put her in a home, and had and would refuse any help. It was only when she died a few months later that we realised how difficult things had become, she hid it all very expertly and Father in law upped his game when we visited but Father in law's dementia was much worse than we realised, he needed 24 hour care, he was underweight, incontinent and his clothes and the house were filthy. They were living on potato smilies. She died because she stopped taking her blood thinners.

If she had admitted she couldn't cope he would have gone into a home whilst they could still have kept him stimulated and provide him with quality of life and she would probably have lived another ten years. The doctor should have rung Social Services after that fall to report there was a safeguarding issue, that is the process that is supposed to kick in . I don't know if the GP knowing how cussed she was decided to give her agency or decided it wasn't worth the resources but once she died Social Services were on it straight away to make sure we were caring for him and giving us support and linking us up to the Occupational Therapists etc. He went to a wonderful home willingly but sadly it was too late for him to benefit from all the activities designed to slow the dementia and give him quality of life. Indeed he became very distressed and a psychiatrist said that the situation he had been in was effectively abuse and he had PTSD.

So please, please report that he may be a vulnerable adult to Social Services. They will be discreet and will not reveal who referred them. They will not update you on what they do. They will not put him in a home, that is an incredibly difficult thing for them to do. There are many old people with dementia who should be in a home but instead are left vulnerable to falling at home, I have just had experience of an orthopaedic ward where 90% of the patients were over 80 and had fallen. All went home. I don't suppose they care two hoots about the care of his cat. They will however, hopefully, make sure he has the support he needs to make him safe and comfortable, things like a toilet riser to make going to the loo easier, handrails, possibly carers and meals on wheels. Of course he may refuse help but OTs are the unsung heroes of our welfare system and are used to persuading people.

I wonder how many people realise the scale and nature of the social care crisis the country is facing?

I've been there, kind of. It was my mother and I saw her but she wouldn't let me into her house for years. And then she had a fall and it all came to a head.

What everyone said about competence is spot on - if he is able to make rational decisions and wants to stay in his house, they have to let him. So I don't think he would be forced into a home, at least it is very unlikely, but he might get some other help.

One thing you could try is talking to Age Concern - they were incredibly helpful with me, and they can tell you what help he might be eligible for, and where to go that isn't necessarily social services. Some places have befriending charities, or social events, or low cost meals at lunch, all of which might help him.

I had to speak to social services about an elderly neighbour. She was very confused, thought people were in the house and taking her money. She had locks on every door in the house. Anyway what they did say was she wasn’t on their system or similar words. I believe they then contacted her gp, who assessed her and said she was fine. Long story but this went on for months, eventually she had to go into care as was starving herself. Very difficult to sort out a situation like this. Wonder if the daughter really exists. Hope the neighbour can help with info.

I was in a similar situation with a relative. Some people of this generation, especially men, don’t want to be a bother or a pain. Your neighbour clearly needs help and support, but probably doesn’t know how or who to ask or want to accept, that sadly, he’s coming to the end of his life and can’t do the things he has been. Age UK are great, but they have a long waiting list sometimes. I would, phone social services. They won’t put him in a home or take his cat away! They will assess him and refer to services such as occupational health and other agencies depending on your area. They can provide smoke alarms, carbon monoxide alarms, personal safety alarms. They can also advise a care agency to pop in to provide some level of personal care, medication etc. Help with meals and general cleaning. But, and it’s a big but... he has to want to accept the help. If he has the ability to make decisions that do not or would not cause a danger to life and/or he understands the possible outcomes of his decisions they can’t help. It’s a very long process to also get all the agencies onboard and working together to provide a care package. They will also want to know his financial situation and there are a lot of forms! I’d make the call, but think carefully about how much time you can commit to someone you have met once. I say that kindly, as I spent 4-6 hours a day for 6 weeks trying to get the basics in place! Good Luck!

Call social services. Worst that happens is they chat to him and he refuses assessment or support. They aren't going to put him in care, clean his house or force carers on him against his will if he has capacity.

If he's self-neglecting, they'll work with him to provide the level of help and support he feels comfortable with.

but if he is managing to go out in his car.i presume to pick up the food he wants?i woul try find his gp.it would be them who would refer him to occupational health and social care.for cleaners,medical,washing help

OP why don't you make an extra plate at tea? and pop it over?

this is what we did for an older neighbour before they died. gave us an excuse to check their house was okay and make sure they had a meal.

Just say you made to much and don't want to throw it away, thats how we started. only did it a few times a week and made sure he had easy meals he can just heat up.

I don't mean this to sound uncaring or unkind and I hope it doesn't come across too blunt but do be careful about how much of yourself you're prepared to give. It's lovely that you want to help him and from what you've posted there are some concerning issues fir this poor man but you already have a lot on your plate. Posters here saying to go in and clean for him or cook him a meal, etc is all well and good if you have the time and ability to do so but dont get into a situation where you feel obligated to do these things. There are ways to help him that don't involve over stretching yourself.

If his daughter comes every Saturday and sleeps over then I'd keep an eye out for her this weekend. If she makes no appearance then ring adult social care on Monday, if she does show up then catch her and let her know what has happened.

My job role is not unrelated to this scenario...

How lovely that you are so concerned. Please contact social services AND the GP.

The Mental Capacity Act will protect him from anything being forced upon him if he has capacity to make his own decisions.

What @SplintersOnTheFence said is not accurate. His capacity can be questioned and assessed if there is reason to believe he MAY lack capacity. What you describe provides ample evidence for a reasonable belief that he MAY lack capacity. If he is found to lack it decisions can be made in his best interests

@SplintersOnTheFence, I'm not sure what evidence your opinion he probably has capacity is based on, as you have no real information on his case. This is a potentially damaging advice to give in a public forum where a vulnerable person potentially requires safeguarding

Okay, I have an update - not a happy one I’m afraid.

I went round to see the other neighbour and she said she too was worried that he was exaggerating about the daughter visiting regularly and we should go round and try to get her number.

So we went round, he welcomed us in. Earlier I was very focussed on him and checking him for injuries and cleaning him up but I saw a lot more this time. It’s worse than I thought. The kitchen is honestly shocking. Everything is coated in years of grease and dirt. There’s a conservatory where the cat food dish is and there’s just cat food and flies all over the floor. The carpet in the lounge is covered in slug trails.

We asked some very gentle questions about his daughter and his story was the same, that she visits every weekend. We asked if we could have her number in case of an emergency, he said no, she mustn’t know he fell down, and he only really tripped anyway and would have been able to get up after a rest.

I asked him if I could wash his clothes which obviously hadn’t been changed in months at least. He said no, his daughter will do it. The other neighbour explained that he’d lost control of his bladder when he fell but he said he didn’t want to get changed.

His smoke alarm was beeping and I asked if I could change the batteries and he said no, it’s a fire service one - SS visited and arranged for them to be installed, but they need to replace them after 10 years (so I assume he meant this all happened 10 years ago).

I told him that I was always across the road if he needs help. I know he won’t ask though.

(I realise this sounds like we ambushed and grilled him but it was honestly a friendly chat, nothing pushy).

As we were leaving we bumped into his next door neighbour (it’s a semi). She confirmed that his daughter does visit every weekend but does absolutely nothing - she brings her laundry to his house to wash! She said that it was like this long before his wife died but is getting steadily worse, and that the smell in her house is so bad that she’s got air fresheners everywhere. She said she and her DH keep an eye out for him and if they don’t hear him moving around they knock on the door, and have climbed over the fence on one occasion when he didn’t answer all day. She says he does ask them for help if he needs something.

Both the neighbours said they didn’t feel it right to call SS because he’s of sound mind. I agree that I couldn’t see any signs that he’s confused - he repeats himself a fair bit but that’s not uncommon. He certainly knows how long it has been since his wife died, when his daughter visits etc.

I said I could call Age UK to see if any volunteers etc could help him but they said he wouldn’t accept it.

Not really sure what to do now, don’t think there’s much I can do is there? Obviously SS have visited at some point, and hopefully he will call the fire brigade to sort out his smoke detectors soon - I will pop over after the weekend and see if he has done it. Maybe they’ll update SS on the situation?

To add, you cannot know whether someone has capacity unless you have assessed it properly. The law states you must presume capacity UNLESS you have a reasonable belief they may lack it, it which case a careful assessment is required by law

He would probably be assessed but if he’s able to make his own choices not much would be done, he maybe offered home help but he may turn that down, you could tell him about things like local meal services which may help (at least then he gets a good cooked meal and doesn’t need to cook for himself or wash up). The issue is with him agreeing to any kind of help. My grandad got like this near the end, it wasn’t until he was hospitalised after a small stroke that he would agree to some home help and then some days he would turn it down,

I'd ring social services so they can make the decision about whether he needs a care assessment, they'll be able to sort out the appropriate support. He doesn't need to know it was you, realistically the call could have come from anyone in the street.

Well worth a phone to ss. At least give them an update on his situation. If they have him on their system the ss can call in and say they are doing a check up. The daughter sounds really caring.

please call Age UK rather than SS.

Sometimes the salvation army or red cross can help. Might be more acceptable to him. So sad. Thanks for caring.