To think social class plays a part in making friends

[Jadefeather7]

I know a lot of people will likely find this obnoxious etc but as I’ve become a mum and seeking to make mum friends I feel like I didn’t realise before how much background impacts on friendships. Most of my friends come from a similar background i.e. we are professionals who live pretty comfortably. I was at a coffee morning today and I found myself having to really think about what I was saying. I felt a bit odd talking about my job and lifestyle. I thought about just sticking to baby topics as that’s what we all have in common but there were things that I couldn’t say for example when the mums were talking about babies not sleeping I couldn’t say that we managed to sort out our baby’s sleep with a sleep consultant. I even felt embarrassed about the way I speak English and felt that people would judge me for being ‘posh’.

I do appreciate everything I have had and I don’t look down on people who don’t have those things but I couldn't help feeling like the odd one out today and feeling that I couldn’t really be myself. I’ve read threads complaining about it being the other way around i.e. mums feeling that NCT groups are too “middle class” but I’m finding the reverse. Has anyone else experienced this? Do I need to try to find friends who are more like me or am I just sheltered and needing exposure to different people? If the latter do I just talk freely and risk coming off like a show off/snob or do I need to constantly be aware off how I come across and keep things to myself?

When you "adjust" your accent or topics of conversation you are not treating people equally.

But if someone has just told me that they walked the two miles to Aldi because they're skint and then asks how things are with me, I'm not going to answer that I'm a bit fed up because the nanny is on holiday that week (an example from RL!) even if that's how I'm feeling. It does lead to self-censorship I think. Not sure how to avoid that.

I feel as though I could have written this post myself OP although have never wanted to say it out loud because people tell you you must have been the one being snobby and rude. I've really struggled to make friends at coffee mornings etc. I'm a stay-at-home mum now as we can afford to do that comfortably on one income. I had a good career which I will return to in due course but have opted not to do that for now. I feel this has put me on the outside of two social groups in my area. The other stay-at-home parents in my area don't tend to be career minded and are more working-class. The more middle-class parents in my area have returned to work and therefore aren't at toddler groups and if they are on a day off they are rather offended that I've chosen not to return to work...as if my choice is somehow stating that their choice is wrong. I am happy to talk to anyone, but it is difficult to walk into a room where the conversation is dominated by topics you simply can't interject on (e.g. a lengthy conversation at one coffee morning on how unfair the benefits system is - I agree that it is but I couldn't really comment). As a result you find yourself holding back on talking about your life for fear of alienating yourself further. After chatting away for a good ten minutes with one really friendly mum about her job, I mentioned what I used to do for a living and it was as if I had said "I'm the lady of the manor, don't you know". I just got ignored after that despite still asking about her job / kids etc, she seemed really friendly until then.

I'm fairly well spoken too (although my West Country husband is dragging my accent down) and I do think that has an impact. There is an assumption that you're "posh" and "stuck up" not based on the words you are saying but how you are saying them.

Well I cant think of anything worse than having to listen to details of someone's holiday, unless they were a close friend. So I wouldn't yak on about mine. a 'did you go away this summer' 'yes to Greece, it was lovely' or yes camping in wales it was wet but lovely or no, not this year! is about all I can cope with. If you meet someone who'se been where you went, or went somewhere particularly interesting then obviously the conversation is going to be fuller.

Not sure how to avoid that you can't and shouldn't avoid that.

If someone says to me, as they did, 'Jane is really fed up with the sport at X School, they only do PE once a week and there aren't any clubs', I am not going to trill " Oh we are so lucky! Games every day for an hour and specialist coaches every afternoon for sports clubs! Off on a hockey tour next Easter!" If I did I'd be a prize twat.

essential
In that situation you're doing the common sense thing of not being a twat though.

I think that's the point. Some people on here are quick to suggest that not being a smug twat / inconsiderate (depending on the response) means they have to self censor their authentic selves and pretend not to have money because obviously everyone must be intimidated or envious of their wealth.

If you were chatting in general then no friend would have an issue with you saying your week is a bit up in their air because the nanny is on holiday.
If someone was sharing they're really struggling and that was the follow up story then it's showing zero human compassion.

But if someone was sharing how their child is struggling in school and you used that opportunity to mention how your child being at private school means you don't have those issues then you'd be inconsiderate and a bit of an arse

Well yeah of course you would. Just like if someone goes on about their cancer treatment and you pipe up "well I'm in PERFECT health!
Obvs. I just mean that just generally being all furtive and apologetic, or, say, not mentioning things you like because you think they won't understand, or being awkward about saying you are going skiing because a woman who lives on a council estate can't possible have ever been skiing..that sort if thing just is patronising because it is based on very shallow assumptions.

I wouldn't assume she had never been skiing. And I would say if asked that I was going skiing. And there the conversation would end, unless she asked me more about it.

Of course you want to avoid shallow assumptions.
I wouldn't think twice of saying where I'm going on holiday, but probably would if someone was sharing about how bad they feel about not being able to do more for their kids.

I think if we think back to the OP, she's assuming that because she speaks a certain way (Vs the working class women who are brash) and has more money that people have an issue with her for it. I'm not sure that's the case.

Even down to "poor me I had to feel like I'm changing myself by not talking about the sleep consultant when others were sharing their struggles, I'm so different and middle class, I feel I'm always having to change myself etc" says more about how they view others than how others view them.

If some mums were sharing sleep struggles and your response would be "well sleep consultant changed my life" then that says more about lack of empathy than anything else, especially if the only reason that wasn't volunteered was out of some paranoia that people don't like the fact you are middle class.

I think this thread is tangling itself in knots!

Yeah I kind of agree Lola. OP I think maybe these women are just not very friendly, but I doubt it's down to class. Don't make assumptions that others are intimidated or that they think you think (phew) you are better than them. Not all wc people are the same as each other, just as not all wealthier people are all the same. Just be open and be yourself.

trewser
Not really.

Social class is a thing.
Some people are friendly/arseholes/attention seekers etc in all social classes
Assuming people in mum circles don't like you because you speak posher (whilst considering them brash) is probably a bit arrogant and uncalled for
If your gut response to people sharing sleep troubles is to talk about how you solved that problem by getting a sleep consultant in then there's a bit of an empathy bypass (as with any "you're struggling, let me tell you why I'm not")
If only reason you didn't share the consultant was part of the same paranoia that people with less money couldn't possibly like you due to your background then that says more about the person and their attitudes to others than the people they are talking to

Assuming people in mum circles don't like you because you speak posher (whilst considering them brash) is probably a bit arrogant and uncalled for is that aimed at me? Because I didn't say that. just because you mentioned me at the top of your post.

Just be open and be yourself

OK. Being myself means not prattling on about all the lovely things I can buy with my money. Hope that's OK!

I remember feeling like this when I had my baby 5years ago. I was the first out of my friends to have a baby so they're all still working. So I did the right thing and went to this class, I think it was a donation when you got there. Well, I tried and I tried but when 2 woman started kicking off with whoever on loudspeaker about housing benefits not being right or what not. I didn't go back. I really tried but I didn't and was never going to fit in.

I googled different classes and found one at a really different kind of play area (at £12 an hour session) and I know this sounds so awful but they were my people. We're all still friends now and children have started different schools.

I promise I'm not a snob.

Most of our friends have similar lives, teaching, diplomatic, military as that's how we met, it's inevitable, but our origins, ie childhood experiences, are varied.

Trewser
I was replying to you, bit referring to what the OP has claimed.

I think I can be in a bit of a class wilderness sometimes.. I grew up pretty middle class, went to a bog standard comp, but got bullied for being too “posh”. Circumstances now mean I live in a council house, am a single parent, claim disability benefits. So I don’t really fit in any box; I’m simultaneously too posh and not posh enough! I think church is the one place it doesn’t matter, as we all have those core beliefs and values in common, as opposed to money or class.

There is so much judgement on here and in RL I’m afraid, it’s very sad. The comments about one poster visiting her dh’s working class family and not being offered bed and food and another poster about how her MC colleagues “play instruments badly, visit national trust places etc” strike me as two opposite ends of a very patronisingly judgemental spectrum!

I am probably wealthier than anyone I know. My dh is a very wealthy self made man. We live in a lovely big house in an expensive area, kids at private school, holiday homes etc. I am reasonably intelligent. I obtained excellent grades at Gcse and a’level but decided University wasn’t for me as I was offered a well paid job and wished to start earning money. I am well read/enjoy the arts and would consider myself a ‘deep thinker’. The point I’m making here is that I consider myself more intelligent than a lot of people I know who have degrees. I don’t believe going to uni is necessarily a sign of being above average intelligence!

However, I speak with quite a broad northern accent which I don’t bother to disguise.
My family were not well-off. My dad had MH issues and didn’t work much but was a very intelligent, well read man. My mum also comes from a poor background but passed her 11+ and attended a top grammar school. They were quite bohemian and there was never much money. We lived in a council house which my parents bought outright.

I have faced a lot of snobbishness over the years which is based, I believe, on my accent. It doesn’t bother me anymore as I’m used to it and I refuse to change who I am to suit others. It just makes me laugh though as I can tell with certain people that they are wary of me because they think I’m not one of their ‘type’. I’ve had mums who are so surprised when they’ve dropped their child off at our house or whatever and seen where we live. The look on their faces is priceless. I have friends who are from the same background as me, friends who are from much posher backgrounds than me (my poshest friend incidentally is the nicest, most genuine and secure person I know). I can always tell when someone is judging me for my accent or the way I look, as though they think I must be “common”! People are just people. There are arseholes in all classes. If I can have a laugh with someone I don’t care where they’re from, il be their friend. More people should think like this! Stop thinking you know someone’s thoughts, feelings or preferences or the kind of life they must live based on their accent or looks or where they went to school! It’s so lazy and small minded.

But class isn't based around money.

Money is part of it though.

Hepzibah when I said it’s vulgar to discuss money, I didn’t mean you should be furtive. Just that I’m struggling to think of many scenarios where it would be a conversation topic.

Eg the carers wage increase. Apart from the fact I’d also agree that’s not a good increase, the natural follow on from my pov would be the scandalous salaries paid for challenging jobs/ wages not increasing with the cost of living/ how the caring professions are unfairly viewed as less worthy etc. Not to bray that a carers wage is less than I spend on one hobby, or point out how much more I have.

Or indeed with people of similar means. Eg I have discussed a horse’s value with a friend in a relevant discussion. Whereas I can’t imagine contributing that fact to a conversation about the prohibitive cost of weekly riding school lessons.

At my antenatal group I was between 10 and 20 yrs younger than the others. And barring a few pretentious twats, most were essentially stereotypically mc. Mortgages, doulas, parenting books, pregnancy exercise class etc. Fuck all like me. I was quite happy to openly share the fact I’d given up all but the safest riding and stayed clear of mosh pits, and then stick to more mutual topics. But didn’t find it hard to avoid sharing my luck in being mortgage free. However it wasn’t the fact that I didn’t fit in due to class or wealth, it was simply that barring polite conversation I simply didn’t have that much in common from a parenting/ life stage perspective. Although at toddler age there was the opportunity to find shared interests outside that narrow range with the same group.

Do I need to try to find friends who are more like me or am I just sheltered and needing exposure to different people?

I'd say that with people like you there is more chance of friendship as you have a lot of things in common. Exposure to different people is good, as long as these people are not rude, or trying to make you feel guilty. In this case, stuff them. You are doing your best being a decent human being, and if some can't see past class/income/material "worth", then they are not worthy of your company. If someone feels they have right to tell you to check your privilege all the time, these people deserve to be put in their place.

As to myself, I found it isn't so much class/social background or wealth which are the uniting aspects, but attitudes and ideas. I get on with liberal-minded, relaxed, non-religious/atheist people. People who have jobs, not careers, who don't dictate to others how to live. I've met them among so called middle class, and working classes alike.

Tact is very important though. Knowing what valuable contribution is, and what isn't and is only likely to upset and aggravate.

I think this example sums it up:
Eg I have discussed a horse’s value with a friend in a relevant discussion. Whereas I can’t imagine contributing that fact to a conversation about the prohibitive cost of weekly riding school lessons

DS starting school has been a revelation for me about this. The Asian mums hang out together. The white MC mums (speaking lots of different languages) hang out together. The working-class mums hang out together. The dads sit on the edge on their phones. I feel like I'm in Orange is the New Black. But I'm totally aware that I'm part of the problem - I do just feel more relaxed with people who are from the same background as me, and I feel like such a dickhead for it. I am trying to give myself a shake, but it is hard when everything is new and you don't know anyone, not to head straight for the friendly faces who look like your pre-existing friends.

If some mums were sharing sleep struggles and your response would be "well sleep consultant changed my life" then that says more about lack of empathy than anything else, especially if the only reason that wasn't volunteered was out of some paranoia that people don't like the fact you are middle class

@LolaSmiles, then what is OP to do? Clearly, if she can't mention the consultant lest she starts the Great British Socialist revolution of 2019. But if she doesn't mention that (or keeps quiet about other advantages in her life), she is then being patronising or assuming too much about what other people might think. She can't win then, can she?
Should she start every social encounter with apologising for her existence and carry her guilt around like some social equivalent of a hair shirt?
I am just trying to understand your point.
[My own way of coping with all this British conundrum of class, as a foreigner, is that I simply don't get bogged down win all that bollocks, I am friendly, don't boast and don't apologise for having something others don't. If that's an offence to some people, I'm fine for them to be offended)