Parents keep baby’s sex a secret to avoid gender bias

[Doyoumind]

This story has been covered pretty widely but I don't think it's been mentioned on here.

A couple have a 17 month old who they refer to as 'they' and the couple didn't even tell family what sex the child is.

Fine, keep things gender neutral and avoid stereotypes but referring to your child only as 'they' is totally othering. They will soon hear other children being referred to differently.

Pretty soon that child will be talking. Unless it lives in a bubble and never has stories read to it that child will understand there are boys and girls and wonder which they are. They will start to realise the difference between when mummy and daddy go to the toilet, unless they are never to be seen naked. At that point they will know whether they are a boy or a girl if their parents are honest and explain the physical differences between male and female.

Their parents might be able to shield them from gender stereotypes to some extent bit they can't deny the obvious biology.

Or are they going to say only some men have penises and some women do too?

I wouldn’t be here if all the women were still following their female socialisation and playing nice. shudder

There's a big difference between being plain rude and "playing nice".

This reminds me of those people who are total dicks and then claim "I'm just telling it like it is".

Oh dear! I’m deeply ashamed for not being nice.

Oops. Nope.

The world has gone mad.

That poor child will grow up confused having had a fundamental part of their identity concealed for no reason other than the parents desire to be alternative.

By all means bring up the child avoiding gender stereotypes and allow the child to form an understanding of his/her self. I agree gender stereotypes are unhelpful but to make your child a "they" instead of a he/she just isn't ok.

And with a parent called Hobbit FFS its like a flashing neon sign saying "oh look how alternative and right on" we are. I've no patience with this nonsense and I would say I'm actually a very liberal person.

Oh dear! I’m deeply ashamed for not being nice. Oops. Nope.

O...kay. Thanks for proving my point 👍🏻

You’re very welcome. 👍

Go well.

So on the original post - a number of different research bodies concur that 1 in a 1,000 babies are born intersex and many undergo invasive, corrective surgery which sometimes damages their changes of full sexual development and pleasure in later life just so their parents can tick a box that says 'male' or 'female' and escape the kind of prejudice and rather blinkered idea that everyone's born with neat little willies and fannies that give them a clear binaried path in life so prevalent on this thread! Beyond the relatively high number of intersex people, there are a significant number of others who are not comfortable with the gender they're assigned (on basis of genitals) at birth and who live their lives deeply uncomfortable and unhappy at being placed in that gender. many of those people experience deep depression, self harm or attempt suicide before being able to take the brave step of living in their preferred gender - something that often brings risk of violence and murder to them - check the current stats of murdered black transwomen in America. To address this and make life easier for those who are trans or who just feel they don't want their whole identity mapped out by having said little willy, or said little vag at birth, some people have devloped an idea - a new idea, but let's face it if no-one tested out new ideas civilisation would not develop and we'd still all be in the caves (sorry Cave Mum, I get that you apparently are) - anyway, they've developed an idea that it might be an idea to try and bring their children up to use neutral terms. I don't know how it'll work but as parents they have the right to try this. Most people try out their ideas and values on their children. Admittedly the wider world tends to come along, kids develop their own voice and some will reject what their parents are trying or agree with it. But that's their business, surely? Everyone goes on that journey with their parents in some shape or form. Ladies - (or women or whatever you want to be called) - what these parents are doing is not so new or even that radical given the way the world has moved on. They genuinely love their children and are doing what they think is right. Why it should be yours or my concern is a little beyond me. Unless of course you're really all transphobes and bigots...surely not?

Stop suggesting that their is anything similar between intersex people and people who say they want to live as those of a a different sex to them. The two are completely separate issues and intersex people are on record as asking the transgender movement to stop dragging them into this. Also stop being mealy mouthed about calling women who are trying to protect the rights of females bigots and transphobes. Those insults have absolutely no power here. We’re no longer frighten about being called names or appearing to be thought if as ‘not nice’, for cantering men. Transgender people are entitled to the same rights and protection as any other person, but those trans people who claim to be women are not entitled to remove women’s rights to safety, dignity and privacy in order to validate their beliefs.

there* not their

Catering. I’m certainly not cantering for men either. They’ve got their friends the furries to do that for them. 😁

That's what you call telling a new user to go to a different forum if they don't like the intolerance shown in this thread?

There's lots of disagreements on many topics on mumsnet. Many disagreements can get heated.
As an observer, there seems to be few topics at the moment that seem to get an awful lot of posters turning up telling women to get back in their boxes.

Ahhhh, here we go. The wide-eyed naivete has been dropped at last; and out come the bullshit/debunked stats and the "why won't you just be NICE"...

hey Jared have you heard of KiwiFarms? Pistonheads? They could do with your brand of telling off. Do let us know how you get on there too.

Oh Jared, step off your high horse just for a minute.

When did intersex come into this? This is not about intersex children it's about parents who call their child "they" and withold a key part of their identity. I get that they want to avoid gender stereotypes but this is not the way to go about it.

Sure 1 in 1,000 children are born intersex. So the other 999 children should be denied a key part of their identity which they can always change when they are old enough to make the decision if they so wish. Just in case they are intersex.

It's their kid not yours. Let them get on with it! I work in a secondary school and most teenagers don't have a problem with any of this non-binary thing. It's us oldies with the problem I reckon. Live and let live.

I would have had a problem with boys in my toilets, as a rape and abuse victim @tiresiamum. But like fuck would I have dared to tell a teacher in this climate.

Ahhhh, here we go. The wide-eyed naivete has been dropped at last; and out come the bullshit/debunked stats and the "why won't you just be NICE"

Who said "why won't you just be nice"?

I work in a secondary school and most teenagers don't have a problem with any of this non-binary thing.

Oh please! Girls are frightened of saying that they don’t believe people can change sex and that they don’t want to share with boys, because they will be called bigots and transphobic. They’re also socialised to be ‘nice’ and ‘inclusive’ so are afraid to say how they truly feel, especially when the teachers are trying so bloody hard to be woke.

Try thinking about your vulnerable female students that don’t have the strength to speak out and are possibly struggling emotionally because of sexual/physical abuse that they are suffering at home. The thought that they have to keep that to themselves due to boys demanding to share their spaces and teachers letting them, is nauseating.

withold a key part of their identity.

This, I celebrate my womanhood and will teach my dd too as well. No one should teach their child to be ashamed of their sex and to hide it. I am woman and I am proud.

In response to some of the concerns about toilets, all the schools I've worked in have single -sex toilets and where there's been a request or a demonstrable need for a non-binary one (ie the well being of a pupil or staff member), an extra one is made available that can accomodate people who don't want to go in the single-sex ones. The idea that transwomen, transgirls or non-binary people with penises go into female toilets to attack others is a myth. Every trans and non-binary person I know (I know lots of them) go into the loo to use the loo. Trans and non-binary people are much more likely to be attacked in toilets and elsewhere for being trans than the other way round.

Teachers support all their students equally whatever and are very strong on safeguarding, including looking for signs of abuse also on issues like female genital mutilation. We receive regular training in this. Just because teachers acknowledge and support the issues affecting trans and non-binary pupils doesn't mean we ignore our cisgendered pupils. We are particularly alert to the issues surrounding violence against young girls and those with female anatomy.

The idea that transwomen, transgirls or non-binary people with penises go into female toilets to attack others is a myth.

No one has accused trans people who identify as female of going into toilets to attack females, but some girls and women have been attracted in toilets by males calling themselves women. How do females tell the difference between those with genuine difficulty in accepting their sex and the rotten apples? What about the rights of the females to comfort, a feeling of safety and dignity? Why don’t their feelings count?

Every trans and non-binary person I know (I know lots of them) go into the loo to use the loo. see my previous comment.

Trans and non-binary people are much more likely to be attacked in toilets and elsewhere for being trans than the other way round. statistics please. Not just rumours. Maybe they and their friends should concentrate on educating men that are violent or offensive to none conforming male bodied people, instead of asking women to give up their rights.

We receive regular training in this. Just because teachers acknowledge and support the issues affecting trans and non-binary pupils doesn't mean we ignore our cisgendered pupils

No such thing as cis. It’s a word that is being imposed on males and females. The very fact that you use it, tells me all I need to know about your so called safeguarding training.

The idea that transwomen, transgirls or non-binary people with penises go into female toilets to attack others is a myth

Fairly sure there has been some non-mythical cases where people with penises have done exactly that.

Canada iirc?

ETA. Googled and this one came up first. Scotland:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news-2-15012/female-spaces-need-better-protection-after-trans-woman-sex-assault-on-girl-say-campaigners-1-4868945/amp

Not so much a myth then?

MrGsFancyNewVagina - there are some statistics in this and it gives some food for thought on the toilets issues- jaapl.org/content/46/2/232