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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Am I missing something? Its the EU that don't want to do a deal, not the UK so why all the flack to Boris?

364 replies

QuiQuaiQuod · 16/09/2019 17:25

Am I naïve? Am I interpreting this right? I'm so sick and tired of the whole thing, but isn't it the EU that are playing silly buggers in their petulance? Boris is trying to do a deal.

Yet everyone is blasting HIM.

BTW I voted remain but accepted the result and just want it all over and done with, plus the attitude of Brussels and remOANERS,- not Remainers who accept result -has been abysmal .

I am not a fan of Boris BTW but he seems to know what to do. Or have I had my head stuck in the sand for the last 3 years?

Please be gentle, no bun fights, a sensible discussion please,

OP posts:
chomalungma · 16/09/2019 21:06

There is a deal on the table.
I bet it would get through Parliament if it was a choice between that Deal and No Deal.

But this whole saga is an example of why such a complex debate affecting ALL of the countries of the UK should not have been put to a simple majority referendum with little information on what would happen or education about the role of the EU, a discussion of borders, Schengen, the WTO etc.

VolcanionSteamArtillery · 16/09/2019 21:07

The EU cannot “do a deal” because BoZo has laid down an impossible condition, to remove the Irish backstop.

You could say the same about the EU insisting it stayed in without further negotiation.

The problem with the backstop is that if when it came to post brexit negotiation the EU decided it wasnt going to agree to anything, UK were stuck. Completely. EU could be as unreasonable and demanding as it liked and UK could do nothing about it. There was no way that was reasonable or ever going to pass through Parliment. Further clarification was requested, it could be that if either side renaged on the trading arrangements agreed within the document thereny delaying a trading agreement there were penalties talties. That would have got through an provided mutual incentive to conclude a trade arrangement sensibly and no threat to the NI border. But no incentive to allow UK to leave why on earth would EU negotiate

It was never about protected Irish peace, it was about using Irish Peace to maintain a political union that was falling apart.

MaudBaileysGreenTurban · 16/09/2019 21:08

So, it's ok for Brexiteers to invoke the war at every turn but if a Remainer quotes something from that era, it's irrelevant?

OK.

And, the Morning Star? Really?

jasjas1973 · 16/09/2019 21:09

But yes unilaterally tying the UK to a political union by using Ireland was never going to get through Parliment

Nonsense, the protection of the SM is their priority and the solution for the NI border is simple...put what controls there are at Dover in NI.

But of course we cannot do that, so its up to the UK to come up with workable proposals.. Johnson has failed to do so.

VolcanionSteamArtillery · 16/09/2019 21:09

I wonder how long it will be before those times come again for Britain?

They won't while nukes ensure countries' mutual destruction. We'll all be too dead.

31RueCambon75001 · 16/09/2019 21:09

This is the attitude that has the rest of the world talking about britain's delusions of an empire.

Your understanding of a deal is that the EU just
capitulate!

The EU doesnt owe the uk a better deal than it gives its members.

RosiePosiePuddle · 16/09/2019 21:13

About Johnson doing the best job he can: Have you seen he bottled a press conference in Luxembourg? What happened to the hulk?! That bullshit lasted 5 minutes. It is so sad that this entitled incompetent man is seen by some as capable.

GrouchoMrx · 16/09/2019 21:14

VolcanionSteamArtillery Mon 16-Sep-19 17:42:47
The EU would only agree to a deal that essentially tied us to the EU with no means of unilateral release.
This completely undermined the authority of the UK parliment (sic)

The irony is lost on you.

chomalungma · 16/09/2019 21:17

There was no way that was reasonable or ever going to pass through Parliment

That's not exactly true, is it.

Some politicians voted against the WA because they didn't want the backstop.

Some politicians had no issue with the backstop - but voted against the WA because they wanted Remain - or a deal that involved the Customs Union or a Single market.

It's disingenious to suggest that the backstop was the only reason the WA did not get through.

whyamidoingthis · 16/09/2019 21:22

I'm Irish. I was listening to the news on the radio earlier today. It started with comments from Barnier about how no new workable, legal suggestions have been put forward by the UK. The Irish government has said the same. Then they had snippets from Johnson and another UK cabinet minister whose name I didn't catch. They were both going on about how close a deal is, and how progress is being made.

I said to dh at the time, if that's all their hearing in the UK, they're really setting the EU up as the baddies. What they were saying was so far removed from what the EU are saying, it was unbelievable. However, there was no detail or anything of substance in what they were saying. It was all wishy-washy, with the intent of conveying the message that the poor, hard-negotiating UK are trying really hard and when it doesn't work, it will be the fault of the mean EU.

When the UK initially decided to brexit, there were multiple options that would allow them to do so without breaking the good Friday agreement. However, Teresa May introduced a series of red lines that pretty much required a hard border. While the GFA does not specify that the border must be frictionless, in order for all the cross-border bodies to work properly, it does need to be frictionless.

Ireland are not willing to sign a deal that breaks the GFA. As Ireland is a member of the EU, the EU are taking that position into account in the negotiations. That resulted in the backstop, which will only be invoked if there is no combination of approaches (technology, protocols etc) that will allow the border to remain open. This was a massive concession on the part of the EU.

However, the UK voted against the deal they negotiated with the EU. Since then, the EU have been very clear that they will listen to any suggestions from the UK that will protect the GFA. All the UK have managed to suggest is that they don't want the backstop and they're sure we'll all figure it out if we just give it a go. Understandably, Ireland and the EU want more than just a suggestion that it'll be all right on the night.

VolcanionSteamArtillery · 16/09/2019 21:22

MaudBaileysGreenTurban

Apologies for the @ no offence meant. I shall avoid it when replying to you in future

user1471453601 · 16/09/2019 21:22

@QuiQuaiQuod. Do you think that no deal will be the end? It will not. We will have to have some sort of trading agreement with the rest of the EU and the USA

The Democrates have already said that they will block any agreement that puts GFA at risk as have the Eu.

If we crash out, we will still be in the same position

Sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "n.a. Nah nah" not works for so long

ListeningQuietly · 16/09/2019 21:30

The Withdrawal agreement is not "a deal"
its the starting point for ten years of dealing

without a solution to the Irish Border, the UK will never be able to "take control" of its borders

leaving without a deal
would just result in lots of grovelling later

VolcanionSteamArtillery · 16/09/2019 21:35

^The Withdrawal agreement is not "a deal"
its the starting point for ten years of dealing^

No but it does cover many of the most controversial areas of a future trading agreement. In many ways its a pretty incredible document.

SonEtLumiere · 16/09/2019 21:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

VolcanionSteamArtillery · 16/09/2019 21:41

The irony is lost on you

When youre picking up spelling errors and discussing English language tropes, i lost your discussion point also....

SonEtLumiere · 16/09/2019 21:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

chomalungma · 16/09/2019 21:50

Taking back control being the Leave motto

Taking back control of our borders.......except we've just remembered that there is part of our Union where a border really wouldn't work.

I have read one of the debates in Hansard during the referendum.

hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2015-06-09/debates/15060939000001/EuropeanUnionReferendumBill

People should read it - this is the one bit about Ireland.

Mark Durkan (back in June 2015)

I do believe that the Government would be well advised to change the question. We have seen this week that the Prime Minister is able to have a second take on some issues. Even when he feels that he is restating a position, it seems to be somewhat different. It might be a case of “EU turn if you want to,” with this Conservative leader. The Government should accede to the advice of the Electoral Commission.

When the referendum takes place, we need to recognise that there are many different issues for many different people. I represent a border constituency in Northern Ireland and the implications of the UK leaving the EU would be pretty fundamental, not just for my constituency but for the political institutions in Northern Ireland. The common experience of EU membership provided the very context in which there were changed British and Irish relations, which in turn provided the context for the peace process.

It should be remembered that the institutions of the Good Friday agreement do not take as givens just the human rights provisions of the Human Rights Act and the European convention on human rights, but the common EU membership of the UK and Ireland. Even some of the cross-border institutions that were set up as a result of the Good Friday agreement directly address and reflect our common membership of the EU. Fundamental damage and change may be done when serious questions are raised about our commitment to human rights and to our membership of the EU. If we are facing a referendum, we will have to address those issues and carry forward the arguments responsibly.

We must recognise that people have more questions about the sovereignty of this Parliament than just where it stands vis-à-vis the European institutions. We heard that yesterday in the debate on the Scotland Bill. There are clear tensions and ambiguities around what the notion of parliamentary sovereignty means for this Parliament, and around the implications for devolved institutions and the rightful authority that they should have. Similarly, in terms of what comes out of any EU renegotiation, there will be tensions between this Parliament’s notion of its parliamentary sovereignty and what emerges in the new arrangements and treaty terms.

That is why, in my view, it would have been better to have had something like a constitutional convention before the referendum not only to address the longer-term democratic relations within the UK and create a new democratic charter between this Parliament and the other elected institutions in different parts of the UK, but to create a new democratic charter that clearly creates a delineation between this Parliament and the various EU institutions.

There is a danger that we will end up with a referendum campaign in which the yes side includes people who want to be both half in and half out, and a no side that is also confused because it includes some people who want to be totally out, as well as people who say that if we reject it, we can be half out and renegotiate in the way that Ireland did. The danger is that we will end up with a referendum that does not settle the question at all in the terms in which Members believe it will.

Apileofballyhoo · 16/09/2019 21:58

Oh dear God.

There is a danger that we will end up with a referendum campaign in which the yes side includes people who want to be both half in and half out, and a no side that is also confused because it includes some people who want to be totally out, as well as people who say that if we reject it, we can be half out and renegotiate in the way that Ireland did. The danger is that we will end up with a referendum that does not settle the question at all in the terms in which Members believe it will.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2019 21:59

"I don't think the EU massively care about Ireland"

Ireland is an EU member.
The UK soon won't be

Any Union protects & cares about members over non-members

ChangeOfTides · 16/09/2019 21:59

Like fuck are you a converted remainer OP. Your previous posts include you saying blacking up is fine, the UK should stop ALL immigration and believing there are 78,000 jihadis in the UK.

GrouchoMrx · 16/09/2019 22:14

VolcanionSteamArtillery Mon 16-Sep-19 17:42:47
The EU would only agree to a deal that essentially tied us to the EU with no means of unilateral release.

This completely undermined the authority of the UK parliment.

The irony is completely lost on you.

(Not referring to your spelling error, by the way.)

VolcanionSteamArtillery · 16/09/2019 22:19

And your discussion point? Theres not a lot i can reply to you except, i understand given your opinion your interpretation of irony. Hence the irony is not lost on me i just dont agree with it. Which doesnt make for an interesting discussion on either of our two parts.

GrouchoMrx · 16/09/2019 22:25

Oh dear. You really don't get it, do you?

Hint: parliament,

VolcanionSteamArtillery · 16/09/2019 22:30

I'm no good with hints.Grin

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