Am I missing something? Its the EU that don't want to do a deal, not the UK so why all the flack to Boris?

[QuiQuaiQuod]

Am I naïve? Am I interpreting this right? I'm so sick and tired of the whole thing, but isn't it the EU that are playing silly buggers in their petulance? Boris is trying to do a deal.

Yet everyone is blasting HIM.

BTW I voted remain but accepted the result and just want it all over and done with, plus the attitude of Brussels and remOANERS,- not Remainers who accept result -has been abysmal .

I am not a fan of Boris BTW but he seems to know what to do. Or have I had my head stuck in the sand for the last 3 years?

Please be gentle, no bun fights, a sensible discussion please,

Re my post regarding Clegg it was the single market he was advocating we leave. But an interesting clip I've just seen is miss swinson calling for an in out vote in 2008.

How did Clegg advocate leaving the single market?

Re my post regarding Clegg it was the single market he was advocating we leave
When was that ?

familycourtq if the ERG and DUP had voted with the government, the WA would have passed.

That is simply incorrect. Even on the final (closest) vote the WA was voted down by 58 votes. Tory Rebels and the DUP totalled 44. And not all the Tory rebels were ERG, in fact some of the ERG voted for the deal in the final vote.

The deal was scuppered by the opposition including all the Lib Dems who opposed it because they wish to remain in the EU, the ERG, the DUP and various other groups and parties.

So that fact that 44 members of the Government parties voted against a Government bill
is the fault of the opposition
????

Down is up and up is down (in the words of Jack Sparrow)

So...do you really still think "it couldn't happen here"?

No - in fact I agreed it absolutely could. I just don't think it is. There are a few similarities but stacks of differences between us now and 1930s Germany and the technology an evil state could use against us is also available for resistance.

So that fact that 44 members of the Government parties voted against a Government bill is the fault of the opposition ????

No that isn't what I said at all.

I was correcting the often-told lie that the WA was defeated solely by the ERG and DUP. It wasn't. That's a fact.

How are they being petulant??

This entire time it’s basically been;

UK: We are leaving
EU: Ok.
UK: We want a deal
EU: Ok, what do you want?
UK: We don’t know but we’re leaving

It’s not like the EU just decided to expel us and say piss off without any sort of agreements. If anything the EU leaders have pushed harder for any sort of deal than the UK has.

Look at yesterday, Boris left an empty podium in Luxembourg because he thought some meanies were too mean to him. Leaving the PM of Luxembourg to point out the disgraceful state of ambiguity British citizens within the EU have been left in by the UK.

TLDR - Boris is a tool and deserves all the criticism he gets.

@Incandescentwithage
I think you might be confusing Nick Clegg pointing out we'd be leaving the single market if we voted leave (which he did before the referendum but appeared to forget about later) with him supporting the idea.
He and Swinson certainly were fervent supporters of an in/out referendum in 2008 www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/25/eu.liberaldemocrats

I think the Prime Minister of Luxembourg was mild in what he said about Mr Johnson. I am ashamed that someone as bad as Mr Johnson is even elected to Parliament, never mind lead a party and the country.

There is a deal on offer, called the Withdrawal Agreement. The UK could propose an alternative such as the backstop only applying to Northern Ireland, common farm policies across the island of Ireland, and trusted trader status. Or a common customs area aka customs union of sorts.

VolcanionSteamArtillery

Theres no SS enforcement, no mass arrests of remainers and no disappearing of opponents to the system, no murders, no court cases where politicians are linked with violent deaths.“

You’re right, not yet. As was the case in the first instance when the Nazi Party was simply an ideaology driven political party. It went out of its way to schmooze the public and the establishment, before it seized control of both.

TulipsInAJugTulipsInAJug

If they understood or valued democracy they would not so arrogantly and glibly dismiss democratic processes.

What if the Democrats in 2016 had simply not accepted Trump's election because they didn't agree with it, and were still campaigning to reverse it and install Hilary?”

😂😂😂 oh the irony. Unlike our (unelected) PM, that paragon of democratic values.

The Democrats would very probably have had a sound case, Trump lost the popular vote by a not insignificant number.

Family. I stand corrected

What if the Democrats in 2016 had simply not accepted Trump's election because they didn't agree with it, and were still campaigning to reverse it and install Hilary?
Trump's power was limited in the 2018 mid terms
There is a chance that he'll be beaten in 2020
and there is no chance that he can stay in power after 2024

Brexit on the other hand is for ever

Fair enough dapplegrey I had genuinely forgotten, the "bit silly" threw me as that's not really a phrase I'd use.

"Corbyns own party are slating him." And the tories are SO cohesive and United...oh wait! Disagreements among party members even over who should be leader are normal. Sacking long serving loyal MPs and a shit ton of defections to other parties are not!

"If they understood or valued democracy" what like Johnson? Proroguing parliament under false pretences, removing the whip from his own MPs. Breaking constitutional laws you mean? Or running away from peaceful protest? That "democracy"?

Or the "democracy" where no deal is forced on people when in all likelihood no Remainers and not all leavers want no deal so very likely a majority of the populace DON'T want no deal?

"and the technology an evil state could use against us is also available for resistance." I very much hope you're right here.

The Democrats would very probably have had a sound case, Trump lost the popular vote by a not insignificant number.

So did Al Gore, to GW Bush. But the funny thing is, that's was the rules and rules are rules and the law is the law. So no, they wouldn't have a sound case. So they didn't challenge the Bush result and they didn't challenge the Trump result.

Respecting the rule of law is pretty fundamental in a democracy. To start dismissing the outcome of the law and democratic processes because you don't like or disagree with the majority or the legal outcome - well, there lies danger.

To start dismissing the outcome of the law and democratic processes because you don't like or disagree with the majority or the legal outcome - well, there lies danger.
Indeed,
but if the Brexit referendum had been binding it would have been rerun by now
it wasn't
so it hasn't

If they understood or valued democracy" what like Johnson? Proroguing parliament under false pretences, removing the whip from his own MPs. Breaking constitutional laws you mean? Or running away from peaceful protest? That "democracy"?

OK. Whattaboutery. If you want to go down that line, why not direct at least the same amount of ire toward Bercow, the 'neutral' Speaker who flagrantly abuses his position and has brought the House of Commons into disrepute, or for that matter the Remainer rebel MPs who have obstructed the government and repeatedly flouted parliamentary convention (dangerous in a country with no written constitution where convention is crucial).

I'm astounded that people cannot see the perils of ignoring a democratic decision. And I'm worried for them.

Tulips

Respecting the rule of law is pretty fundamental in a democracy. To start dismissing the outcome of the law and democratic processes because you don't like or disagree with the majority or the legal outcome - well, there lies danger.“

Indeed. Will you please inform Mr. Johnson?

The Speaker is there to represent the interests of Parliament, not the executive.

But not worried enough about those of us MOST likely to be negatively affected by a no deal brexit up to and including DEATHS to take our concerns seriously and look at the MOUNTAINS of expert advice and research which shows how very likely this is.

No instead you'd rather shout "whataboutery" than address the very real and valid criticisms of johnsons and other no dealer MPs (who don't give a shiny shit and KNOW them and their loved ones will be fine) actions and bloody offensive decisions and comments!

As usual leavers don't have reasoned arguments they have name calling and dodging the criticisms

Brexit on the other hand is for ever

Who says?

If you want to re-join the EU then start a campaign after we leave

But a vote was held and the majority voted to leave.

The big problem is lots of people think they can ignore the majority result. But what happens when the next vote happens and a large minority decide to ignore its result. We've abandoned the very foundations of democracy. We might as well just give up on voting altogether

No instead you'd rather shout "whataboutery" than address the very real and valid criticisms of johnsons and other no dealer MP

Ha, ha, I'm not shouting. Is that a joke?

I don't want no deal. I don't think many people do. I don't think Boris Johnson does. I think he's a total idiot with zero integrity, I think he's a liar. I strongly dislike the man. But he's not the only one engaging in political shenanigans and at least he's trying to respect the will of the people.

Three years on, we're still full members of the EU. The country has to leave and move on. Taking No Deal off the negotiating table was a silly move. Forcing us to delay Brexit is silly and will achieve nothing.

The country has to leave and move on
To where ?

As usual leavers don't have reasoned arguments they have name calling and dodging the criticisms

Excuse me?

I thought i was making a reasoned argument about the importance of respecting a democratic vote.

But apparently that's not worth discussing.

Instead let's bash Leavers as usual.