Am I missing something? Its the EU that don't want to do a deal, not the UK so why all the flack to Boris?

[QuiQuaiQuod]

Am I naïve? Am I interpreting this right? I'm so sick and tired of the whole thing, but isn't it the EU that are playing silly buggers in their petulance? Boris is trying to do a deal.

Yet everyone is blasting HIM.

BTW I voted remain but accepted the result and just want it all over and done with, plus the attitude of Brussels and remOANERS,- not Remainers who accept result -has been abysmal .

I am not a fan of Boris BTW but he seems to know what to do. Or have I had my head stuck in the sand for the last 3 years?

Please be gentle, no bun fights, a sensible discussion please,

Eerie

I think the general un said etiquette on tagging people is usually if they have not come back to a thread or you want to ⚠ then to something but not in the way your using it currently.

Eg op posts about, Disney... And hotels...

This isn't a 'matter of opinion', it's a matter of fact.

We have acted entirely independently, parliament has exercised its sovereignty at every turn, and yet we are fucked because we have a vastly over-inflated sense of entitlement and we think the rules don't apply to us.

There is not an 'EU clause' limiting our ability to do whatever the fuck we please. There are, however, laws and international peace treaties. (Although apparently our esteemed PM thinks those don't apply to him either.)

This isn't a 'matter of opinion', it's a matter of fact.

@EerieSilence

Have you ever wondered about the Dairy industry through? It was one of our biggest industries

I asked my mp why prior to the EU union we were relatively self sufficient in milk but now we import often from France. He had no answer for me.

Whilst the EU has been good for Some industries it has decimated others and held others back. Look at the difference in volumes of milk produced in the UK before EU and after. I begs some big questions

It also worries me if you track back many of the negative estimates for the British Economy they come from academics or other areas that could well suffer from Brexit. Its hardly impartial and would be a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas.

Please be gentle, no bun fights, a sensible discussion please,

Yeah, you lost on that by using the incredibly childish and divisive trope “remoaners”
🙄

Oops apologies for weird random repetition!

I posted article on brexit arms about dreadful agriculture policy.

So many negatives in so many ways.

There is not an 'EU clause' limiting our ability to do whatever the fuck we please.

If it wasn't for the backstop clause i think theres every chance the WA would have got through Parliment. It was only the coalition of remainers and leavers that took it down. If that clause had a small amount of tinkering i have no doubt it would go through, in fact had no deal remained on the table I firmly believe an 11th hour deal would have been done.

@VolcanionSteamArtillery

Dutch1e yes and no. I think it says in that wiki page that he was an advocate of closer ties in europe and that those couldnt be effective without UK's involvement. He didnt believe UK should be ruled by Europe. I think either side could make Churchills words fit their POV tbh.

No, I'm pretty sure there's no doubt about what Churchill wanted. In his own words:

"What is this sovereign remedy? It is to recreate the European fabric, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, safety and freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe."

winstonchurchill.org/resources/speeches/1946-1963-elder-statesman/united-states-of-europe/

Volcanion, I have other arguments for you:

www.vice.com/en_uk/article/d3q9jw/what-its-like-to-run-a-dairy-farm-when-no-one-drinks-milk-anymore

Another argument is the globalisation of the world and retail. Funny enough, you can get British dairy in Ireland and elsewhere, including milk and cream. Irish milk goes to China to produce formula for babies. Wanna bet that once Brexit is done, it won't be about the recovery of the British dairy industry - instead of the Danish milk, you'll get nice and cheap milk from the US etc.? Just because you can? Just because it's cheaper than the domestic produce?

So when you talk about restrictive EU clauses, you're basically talking about the clause that requests we don't break the terms of an international peace treaty and fuck over NI?

What 'small amount of tinkering' would solve the backstop issue, in your opinion?

A deal was worked out between Britain and the EU. It took two years and is a very detailed withdrawal deal, nearly 600 pages.
Added to that Britain asked for a two year transition period which was finally agreed on 21 months.
In addition there is a political understanding document that in broad terms sets out the things that will be negotiated like trade after Britain leaves.
This is the deal that has not been passed by the British Parliament.
The sticking point for the politicians but not the original negotiators is the back stop.
Presently PM Johnson suggests he is putting forward new ideas and the EU says he has not but is just saying that for domestic consumption.
Johnson is a proven liar so I believe the EU.

Yes, YABU. Theresa May tried to do a deal too. But oh, sorry, she's a woman, and doesn't have the manly charisma Boris has, so his efforts to do a deal are much better received by the mysoginistic British public than hers. Theresa was just a 'big girl's blouse' maybe, or perhaps a 'girly swat'. We're never going to give another woman as much gravitas as we gave to Margaret Thatcher - even if we loathed her politics - are we?

Get Theresa out, and get a man in to do the job, eh?

Maybe if Boris Johnson bothered to actually take the podium and speak at planned engagements, he could shed some light on what it is he’s doing?

Instead of running away like a little chicken.

OP, to answer the question that was asked in your title- what you and the rest of the UK are missing is leadership and accountability.

No, I'm pretty sure there's no doubt about what Churchill wanted.

If you read the rest of that speech the European state hes referring to is France and Germany, with other smaller states able to join as they wish. Although if you take that in combination with Germany must be deprived of the power to rearm and make another aggressive war one wonders if he isnt more looking at a French overlordship of Germany. I dont think anyone would advocate for that now!

He talks about Britain being a part of a European Council. Not actually about britain being part of the state.

But again i think thats all up for interpretation. He's dead so we cant ask him and he was also writing at a very different time from that which we live in now. Who knows if hes say the same thing given the intervening years

@EerieSilence

I suppose it depends on whether you see unchecked globalisation as a good thing (for the environment or for the economy)

you'll get nice and cheap milk from the US etc.? Just because you can

I wouldn't like to bet against you there, but that isnt the outcome I'd be after and id fight against that too. (Not least because I'm allegic to penicillin and already can't eat Hagan Daiz because of they milk contains traces)

Which is another reason for a general election. Its about time the parties actually started putting forward some more well rounded proposals for the future.

@VolcanionSteamArtillery

UK imports just 16% of its dairy requirements (mainly milk) we export a lot of butter and cheese, 98% to europe, 35000 tonnes of butter, 180000 tonnes of cheese, hardly a failed industry is it?

Dairy ind will be hit v hard with 18% tariffs on uk exports, our imports will have a 14% tariff on them, the reality of WTO trade.

Why Johnson thinks this is great for britain is a mystery to me.

Yes, you are naive. Or goading.

I’ll bite though. 🙄 in simple terms.

The EU cannot “do a deal” because BoZo has laid down an impossible condition, to remove the Irish backstop. Which his ministers are bandying about as “undemocratic”. That’s bollocks, but anyway.

He knows what he has asked for is impossible for 27 other countries to agree to. Making this impossible demand makes him look like a strong man at home to those gullible enough to fall for such an idiotic posture. He knew before he got on the plane that the EU couldn’t possibly agree. That’s the point, it helps him further. He can address the gullible at home and say “look, I went to the evil EU and offered them a deal but they won’t compromise”.
It’s cynical manipulation of people who don’t understand the EU’s legal position and duty to its other members, of the very worst kind.
You do understand that he has friends who have a great deal of money to gain if we leave with no deal?

Tory stooges at it again. If i had a quid for every "I voted remain but [insert brexiteer agenda item]"...

When talking to actual remainers (most people I know) no one ever comes out with crap like this.

@MaudBaileysGreenTurban no offence but weve covered that extensively already. There are ways round, but honestly i think we'd have had a trading agreement pretty sharpish and discussion about the border wpuld end up being academic, the WA laid out the basis for it already, i dont think we'd actually have got to the stage where it countures needed to put those contingencies in place. Most of the trading agreement was tied up in the WA.

But yes unilaterally tying the UK to a political union by using Ireland was never going to get through Parliment.

waving their Union Jacks.

Not for long.
The St George's cross.

Witchenf

Is that you Boris?
I think you're the only person that thinks Boris knows what to dO”

Think it might be Carrie. BoZo arrived home earlier than expected. Ah, they can take the dog for a walk.

you'll get nice and cheap milk from the US etc.?

Cheap US milk has pus in it unfortunately. Not a lot, but still...

Volcanion, no offence but you've not covered it at all. What are the 'ways around'? What is the 'small amount of tinkering' re the GFA that is apparently so clear to you but that has so far eluded everyone else?

And please don't @ me.

Very good distraction techniques.
I've quoted, from morning star, what guy has said about the eu becoming an empire after something I said was ridiculed for harping back to empire.

Guy wants an empire.

But suddenly we are talking about Churchill and what he said in different times 50 plus years ago after worst period in entire world history

He talks about Britain being a part of a European Council

And you still are, you silly people. But rather than actually become active in the EU you've (collectively) ignored it for 30 years then suddenly begun blaming it for whatever is going wrong.

You're right that he wrote that speech at a different time - I wonder how long it will be before those times come again for Britain?