Am I missing something? Its the EU that don't want to do a deal, not the UK so why all the flack to Boris?

[QuiQuaiQuod]

Am I naïve? Am I interpreting this right? I'm so sick and tired of the whole thing, but isn't it the EU that are playing silly buggers in their petulance? Boris is trying to do a deal.

Yet everyone is blasting HIM.

BTW I voted remain but accepted the result and just want it all over and done with, plus the attitude of Brussels and remOANERS,- not Remainers who accept result -has been abysmal .

I am not a fan of Boris BTW but he seems to know what to do. Or have I had my head stuck in the sand for the last 3 years?

Please be gentle, no bun fights, a sensible discussion please,

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/verhofstadt-eu-empire-is-only-way-to-defend-britain

“The world of tomorrow is a world of empires, in which we Europeans and you British can only defend your interests, your way of life by doing it together in a European framework and a European Union.”

He went on: “The world order of tomorrow is not a world order based on nation states or countries, it’s a world order that is based on empires. China is not a nation, it’s a civilisation.

These comments follow on from growing concerns that the EU intends to create its own armed forces.

In April Mr Verhofstadt tweeted: “For 70 years, Nato has been a cornerstone of our security. Now it is vital we strengthen @Nato by building its European pillar, based on a European defence community and a European Army, so that Europeans can take their future into their own hands.”

Simple version

The Lisbon Treaty has been in effect since 2009. It's about mutual cooperation, which is vitally important for domestic as well as international security. We'd still need that level of cooperation even if we leave the EU. We cannot fight a war on our own.

"Mr Henkel, a member of the small Liberal Conservative Reformers (LKR) party, who is deputy chairman of the Tories' European Conservatives and Reformists (ECR) grouping in the European Parliament, said the EU must “accommodate” the UK, but warned it would require “give and take on both sides”.

Writing in The Times, he urged fellow MEPs not to listen to Mr Verhofstadt or Mr Barnier, who “want to make a mess out of this whole unhappy situation”.

Describing Mr Verhofstadt as “an ambitious politician who wants to achieve a United States of Europe”, Mr Henkel said the Belgian former prime minister's attitude paved the way for the “disaster” of Brexit by allowing British Eurosceptics to whip up anti-EU sentiment.

“Mr Verhofstadt now wants to punish the British, full stop,'' said the German MEP.

“He says he doesn't want to, but I'm afraid he does. My impression is that Mr Barnier wants to do the same.

“The reason is simple. They would seek to make sure that Brexit is such a catastrophe that no country dares to take the step of leaving the EU again.

“This is a terrible situation for us all.

@VolcanionSteamArtillery, thank you, you're right. I found the quote:

"We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living."

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/02/15/michel-barnier-forced-apologise-inappropriate-brexit-punishment/

he European Commission was forced to apologise to diplomats from the remaining 27 EU member countries for the “inappropriate wording” of the Brexit punishment clause, amid fears it could trigger a British walkout from negotiations.

Wasn't Churchill one of the advocates of a United States of Europe?

@MaudBaileysGreenTurban - I merely concurred - you can't argue with great politicians.

The EU and the former PM agreed a deal. It's called the Withdrawal Agreement.

Unfortunately, parliament wouldn't approve it and the PM completely failed to find a way forward.

Current PM has the notion that a deal negotiated by a PM can have lines drawn through the bits he personally doesn't like and the EU should still go ahead with it.

This is because he is a moron.

Mr Henkel is a eurosceptic in the same mould as the ERG. And they are just his views, not facts.

Eerie, indeed

It suits Brexiteers to forget that their oft-invoked hero was very keen on the idea of a united, closely connected Europe. He understood the need to stand together, not alone.

I don't think the OP is being naive at all. The EU could be doing far more than they are, of course, but they gain more from this by sitting back and watching the UK tie itself in knots.

Wow, someone who seems to understand how it works. The EU don't have to negotiate, they simply look at proposals and turn them down.

The UK voted to leave without its govt considering how they would leave the EU esp including while still adhering to the good Friday agreement. That's basically it. May negotiated a deal acceptable to both sides, but the UK parliament rejected it. The govt you have now is not seriously negotiating as is clear. I have no idea what their end game is.

It is possibly one of the most bizarre examples of how not to govern that western Europe has seen in the last while. Remember May's first Brexit minister, went to meet EU to begin negotiations on leaving but went with no plan, no proposals, nothing.

It is not up to the EU to sort this out. They cant. It is the UK who must either propose a new deal and negotiate that with the EU or accept the deal they already have on the table. And after all, Johnson has been telling uk , that they're on the verge of a deal. I'm sure hes not lying...

Personally, I think Cameron has a lot to answer for, for agreeing to a referendum without any thought. But other than a very few, none of UK politicians have done much better than him since.

It's a total mess of the UK s making. Obv the EU has its faults, but not in the way they've dealt with this to be fair.

What exactly was the 'Brexit punishment clause', september? As you know, that Telegraph article is behind a paywall. I seem to remember it was something utterly appalling and unreasonable about us having to follow EU laws until we had actually left, but very happy to be corrected.

@Dutch1e yes and no. I think it says in that wiki page that he was an advocate of closer ties in europe and that those couldnt be effective without UK's involvement. He didnt believe UK should be ruled by Europe. I think either side could make Churchills words fit their POV tbh.

@Dutch1e - surely, see my quote.
This is an amazing article that many posters here validated with their statements on the naughty EU not allowing Britain to brexit without a proper solution to desolution:

www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/brexit-is-aggressive-and-dangerously-nostalgic-the-uk-is-in-for-a-brutal-chastening-1.3841576

Yeah right. You’re a remainer.

I look fwd to Johnson publishing all these practical and serious proposals hes been making tillytrotter.... of course there's just one problem with that ..

He didnt believe UK should be ruled by Europe

Lucky we're not and never have been then, eh?

@VolcanionSteamArtillery - what does it mean - ruled by Europe?
In what way?
That people employed in factories in Britain benefited from those factories being there because Britain was in the EU.
Banks and other financial institutions benefited from the EU as well.
Universities were getting grants, towns and villages could use grants to execute projects they wouldn't have been able otherwise.
All the while, Britain was one of the major decision makers in the EU and had the right to decide their own policies, mind you, Cameron even got more concessions from the EU before he came up with the great idea for the referendum.
Britain got everything handed over on a plate.
How was Britain ruled by the Europe? What were the British not allowed to do?

I wasn't talking about Churchill but guys salivating over European empire.

His pushing for an eu army.

@MaudBaileysGreenTurban thats really a matter of opinion though. Being uable to leave a supposed "trading block" after a democratic referendum because the EU has inserted a clause that limits Parliments abilty to self govern doesnt exactly indicate we have the ability to rule or act independently....

@Septembersunrays - there are many voices calling for many final form of the EU. They're not halfway to any kind of an EU army.
And once again please, just one more quote from a politician using the phrase EU Empire (except for Nigel Farage who to make sure that Brexit is smooth and the British are totally separated from the EU got his children German passports).

@saoirse31 - Johnson never had any proposals as any rational person knows. It's all just a stunt and theatre for his voters, the tough posh Englishman confronted with the adversity and animosity of the treacherous European barbarians. He can't wait for no deal and the Tories running roughshod over the British, making them poor while proud of being English (because strangely enough that's what the British identity seems to be uniting with) and waving their Union Jacks.