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Am I missing something? Its the EU that don't want to do a deal, not the UK so why all the flack to Boris?

364 replies

QuiQuaiQuod · 16/09/2019 17:25

Am I naïve? Am I interpreting this right? I'm so sick and tired of the whole thing, but isn't it the EU that are playing silly buggers in their petulance? Boris is trying to do a deal.

Yet everyone is blasting HIM.

BTW I voted remain but accepted the result and just want it all over and done with, plus the attitude of Brussels and remOANERS,- not Remainers who accept result -has been abysmal .

I am not a fan of Boris BTW but he seems to know what to do. Or have I had my head stuck in the sand for the last 3 years?

Please be gentle, no bun fights, a sensible discussion please,

OP posts:
bellinisurge · 17/09/2019 15:56

The EU agreed a deal with the UK. ERG/DUP voted it down.

Graphista · 17/09/2019 16:36

“"Oh, that could never happen here” is precisely how things happen."

I think what's extremely worrying is people forgetting it DID and DOES happen here!

Did - in terms of we had our very own home grown fascists and were at points scarily close to allying ourselves with nazi Germany.

Does - in terms of we STILL have our very own home grown bigots and racists who are extremely vocal and visible and are gaining support.

As per pastor niemöllers poem "first they came for..."

As someone born Catholic, proudly working class and socialist and also disabled and mentally ill and with an also disabled dd who is starting to have her own MH struggles it TERRIFIES me the way the narrative is heading!

If you think you aren't "other" - yet! I suggest you carefully consider the strong likelihood of you becoming so! Remember in nazi Germany eventually the only truly "ok" people by the end were white, wealthy, Protestant, blond, blue eyed men! We may not end up with that particular situation but it's entirely possible from what I can see that the only "ok" people would be white, wealthy, Protestant men with a proven uk heritage going back hundreds of years! So even JRM (supposedly Catholic) needs to watch his back!!

What's your class? Heritage? What religion would the likes of Johnson assign you? Are you in good health and therefore of value in terms of productiveness?

I also lived in Germany for several years and saw some German made documentaries on WWII (they really don't shy away from shining a light on what happened with a view to preventing it happening again) this was in the 90's and in it they were interviewing people who had reported friends/neighbours to the authorities. These were people who's children they had cared for, their children played with, they had loaned each other "cups of sugar", they'd been to school together etc and yet they betrayed them. Why?

"It was the law at the time I didn't want to be caught breaking that law" so fear - somewhat understandable if not wishing to condone.

But also

"It had been explained to us how 'they' were not contributing to our society. We're fraudsters and con men and thieves. Had stolen from the govt" so people believing the propoganda

"They would have killed us if we hadn't" this said by a woman who when challenged had ZERO reason to believe the FAMILY she reported were any threat to her other than her believing propaganda and horror stories.

The worst?

"They were vermin! I didn't want them near me or my family" - now I am SURE people will come on and say Brits would never think like this - I've met and conversed with people who DO think like this about Muslims. I had nothing more to do with the people concerned they were vile racist arseholes but I can assure you they ARE out there!

The Germans are really not so dissimilar to us in terms of family, culture, what we consider is right/wrong, so if you think a situation like there was in the lead up to WWII couldn't happen? You're deluded!

"Boris isn't Hitler and he won't become Hitler." Perhaps not - but he could pave the way for one, even unwittingly. Look at the history of how countries have ended up with violent dictators - those periods are usually preceded by political disruption & division, economic downturns, high unemployment, a population that feels not just disenfranchised but completely ignored... Sound familiar?

Then comes along a charismatic, decisive, seemingly logical leader who says "things are a mess, you're all suffering, I can sort it ALL out if you just give me the power to do WHATEVER I say is needed however unfair that may seem to what is really a tiny minority of a certain type of people within the population, who, come on, they don't really matter as much as you do they?"

"Theres no SS enforcement" yet
"no mass arrests of remainers" yet "no disappearing of opponents
to the system" yet/that we know of
"no murders, no court cases where politicians are linked with violent deaths." Erm...you might want to rethink that one slightly. Johnson has certainly been strongly linked to a plot organising a hit on a journalist iirc

There IS already

Strong moves to allow intelligence agencies access to ALL electronic communications

Strong moves to "monitor" the population as a whole REGARDLESS of whether they've done anything illegal - facial recognition, CCTV monitoring by intelligence agencies, we've already got teachers basically being expected to "identify" children who are "potentially being radicalised" - can we say "Orwellian nightmare"?

A monopolised press - we don't have CLOSE to a free press or balanced msm in this country.

Our children (and we ourselves) have/are already being taught wrong information in history lessons about the uk, ireland, britains role in colonialism and the effects that are still very much being felt around the world today.

They're NOT being taught properly their rights, responsibilities, how to assess right from wrong, understanding of other cultures and societies.

So...do you really still think "it couldn't happen here"?

Graphista · 17/09/2019 16:37

I see absolutely nothing in that article aside from her CLAIM to be left wing to suggest she is actually left wing, certainly no evidence of feminism.

Incandescentwithage · 17/09/2019 17:09

Graphista. The earths flat as well don't you know.

pointythings · 17/09/2019 17:14

familycourtq so there are left wing people who think Brexit is a good idea. Who knew? I certainly had no idea. I am now fully converted and will be a BeLeaver henceforth. HmmHmmHmmHmmHmm

Or was that not the point of your post? If not, what was?

Incandescentwithage · 17/09/2019 17:26

Isnt corbyn a euro sceptic or has he had an epiphany

pointythings · 17/09/2019 17:37

Corbyn is congenitally unable to make any kind of decision. I suspect he is a Lexiter. But 1) he isn't in charge and 2) he doesn't agree with the people who are happy to drive the UK off a cliff, which is something.

Incandescentwithage · 17/09/2019 17:41

Correct me if I'm wrong didnt Clegg also show disdain for the eu

PerkingFaintly · 17/09/2019 17:45

Couldn't tell what Corbyn is just from reading MN, Incandescentwithage.

Lot of posts addressed at Remainers, saying he's covertly a Leaver.
Lot of posts addressed at Leavers (on the thread or more generally), saying he can't be trusted not to Remain.

Haven't double-checked, but I have a notion it's THE SAME POSTERS saying both these things.Grin

(I guess to rightish-wing Brexiteers, it may be immaterial: they know they hate him and that's all they need to know.)

pointythings · 17/09/2019 17:50

You're wrong. Nick Clegg is a prat of the first order, but he is very much a remainer.

Solitarycaddis · 17/09/2019 17:57

Nick Clegg has written a book called "How to stop Brexit" Incandescent!

He recently denied that Facebook played a significant role in the Leave vote though I think.

Nonnymum · 17/09/2019 18:07

Correct me if I'm wrong didnt Clegg also show disdain for the EU,

Nick Clegg is very pro EU. His wife is Spanish, his children are half Spanish and he used to work for the EU.

ChangeOfTides · 17/09/2019 18:13

Jesus Christ, what’s the bloody point when people think Nick Clegg is a Eurosceptic. This thread was started by a poster with a history of borderline racist posts and nothing in it says anything good about Brexiters.

I do know some Lexiteers btw, they exist. They’re wrong, but at least generally for better reasons.

Dapplegrey · 17/09/2019 18:16

Graphista what evidence do you have that Catholics will be persecuted?

Graphista · 17/09/2019 18:18

Being a euro sceptic is not necessarily the same as wanting brexit, though I acknowledge Corbyn is probably a leaver.

Lots of us Remainers acknowledge the eu isn't perfect (no political system is!) but that's a VERY long way from wanting a disastrous, rushed, no deal brexit!

No deal is throwing out the bath water, bath tub AND the baby because the water cooled a bit!!

Graphista · 17/09/2019 18:19

Graphista what evidence do you have that Catholics will be persecuted?

Are you serious? Do you know ANYTHING about the history of how Catholics were/are treated in the uk?

Heard of Guy Fawkes? The troubles? Religious discrimination?

Give me strength!

MrsMaiselsMuff · 17/09/2019 18:20

His wife is Spanish, his children are half Spanish and he used to work for the EU.

Change Spanish to German and you've got Nigel Farage!

(I do agree that Clegg is pro EU, but he did campaign for a referendum too.)

familycourtq · 17/09/2019 18:21

The EU agreed a deal with the UK. ERG/DUP voted it down.

No. The ERG/DUP and a very significant number of remain MPs voted it down.

MrsMaiselsMuff · 17/09/2019 18:22

Corbyn wants change in the EU, but you can only do that if you're a member.

He actually held more rallies in the remain campaign than any other leader, but that doesn't make for a good headline.

Dapplegrey · 17/09/2019 18:30

Graphista
The Germans are really not so dissimilar to us in terms of family, culture, what we consider is right/wrong, so if you think a situation like there was in the lead up to WWII couldn't happen? You're deluded!

I asked you what you thought of the shadow chancellor standing beneath a banner depicting Stalin and Mao and (I think) you said you thought it ‘a bit silly’. Apologies if you didn’t say that.
Corbyn could win an election and I think it’s bloody scary having a chancellor who is happy to stand beside pictures of two of the greatest mass murderers of the 20th century.
Imagine if a Tory MP today stood beside a banner of Hitler.

Graphista · 17/09/2019 18:48

I don't believe I actually bothered to comment on that.

It's an appallingly bad decision to make I agree, but quite honestly I look at what the various politicians are doing in terms of votes and policy decisions and the tories and lib dems choices are horrific.

Labour choices I don't always agree with but upon looking at voting records and similar they are far more closely aligned with what I think should be happening.

An awful lot of Corbyn/Labour critics IME have based their opinions almost purely on the very biased reporting (if you can even call it that) in msm which is largely funded/controlled by extremely wealthy, usually tax dodging Tory voting - sponsoring owners

If someone genuinely AFTER reading the party manifesto, voting records and career history of labour MPs inc Corbyn still don't like what they stand for, while I would disagree I would at least respect their opinion being based in actual knowledge.

And I am not saying the Labour Party are perfect, perfection doesn't exist anywhere in life. But I certainly feel they are a damn sight more interested, knowledgable and considerate of life for the most vulnerable Brits, and that if they were in power we wouldn't have such high levels of homelessness, poverty and discontent.

pointythings · 17/09/2019 18:53

familycourtq if the ERG and DUP had voted with the government, the WA would have passed.

The fact that the opposition (the clue is kind of in the name) didn't vote for the WA is not actually that unexpected.

Dapplegrey · 17/09/2019 19:03

poster Graphista Tue 03-Sep-19 17:02:58
I'm with Bertrand - proactive stuff like the tories ingratiating behaviour with the Saudis is far more terrifying to me than a thoughtless photo issue

Graphista you did comment about the Stalin banner but you didn’t say it was ‘a bit silly’.

Incandescentwithage · 17/09/2019 19:09

Graphista. Corbyns own party are slating him.

TulipsInAJug · 17/09/2019 19:11

remainers are quite entitled not to accept the vote

Yes they are but they are also very unwise, very shortsighted, very ignorant. If they understood or valued democracy they would not so arrogantly and glibly dismiss democratic processes.

What if the Democrats in 2016 had simply not accepted Trump's election because they didn't agree with it, and were still campaigning to reverse it and install Hilary?

Huge disruption, division, chaos, and a dangerous undermining of democracy. An increasingly broken political system. That's what's happening in the UK.

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