To think Sam Smith is being ridiculous?

[gc400]

For asking to be called they/them?

"Ru Paul has a whole bloody TV series dedicated to men dressing as women"

RuPaul doesn't say he's a woman. Very big difference.

"He does not want to be a woman but he feels very ‘feminine’ sometimes. He does seem to enjoy and want to access the part of what he thinks is femininity that can appear sexualised"

Equating those things (heels, makeup, whatever) with being a woman or having womanly qualities is so damaging.

You will find few feminists saying men shouldn't wear heels or make up. That's not our point at all.

@PookieDo A very considered response. I see what you're saying but do you also accept that in the main, such views of 'femininity' are more damaging to women? Especially from someone in such a spotlight as SS?

If your friend wants to wear high heels and the odd neglige then so be it. But SS is making a parody of womanhood and dragging women down whilst he deals with his self-obsession. Fundamental difference. SS is doing harm with his massive and influential platform whereas your friend is most likely just wearing a bit of lipstick in the comfort of his own home.

Wear what you want.

But shut the fuck up about it.

Personally I think that the general opinions on here are unreasonable.

Being asked to be called 'them' isn't new. There are lots of people who don't identify with being either male or female and that is their business, their choice.
I think though that there should be a better term rather than 'them' to describe being neither him or her. Like there are in some cultures (such as Japan I believe).
I don't find it irritating at all & I also believe that people should be termed whatever they want to be (I'm sure I've been called worse! Lol...).
But maybe I'm just more open minded than most of the opinions here I don't know but I have personal experience of this in my family so maybe that's why I can be more understanding.
I don't know any of Sam Smith's music I add...!!

@VladmirsPoutine

Yes I do
I think if it was more acceptable to be a flamboyant male, accepted by other men then they would not feel the need to go down the road of parodying women in such a flamboyant manner. But they are aware it’s a flamboyant style, it is not intended to copy any specific woman as such, it is a derivative of drag.

Ru Paul doesn’t say he is a woman but he has dressed as a flamboyant drag artist for a long long long time and has brought drag into the mainstream. Ru Paul also talks about ‘girls’ and uses the word ‘girls’ to in context of the artists and the freedom to dress as you want

SS and other such men take elements of this flamboyant drag - almost like ‘drag lite’.

This makes me glad I'm getting old and don't have to pretend to be okay with this nonsense.

"But maybe I'm just more open minded than most of the opinions here"

Yes, that must be what it is.

Maybe read what people are actually saying and how harmful all this is instead of patting yourself on the back for being so bloody marvellous.

Question- how do the majority of people on here giving such phobic opinions on this cope with single sex toilets? This is the way things are moving now folks... get with it.

"Question- how do the majority of people on here giving such phobic opinions on this cope with single sex toilets? This is the way things are moving now folks... get with it."

Nah it's really not and even if it was, it doesn't make it right. Popular opinion is not the same as morality, nor is compelled speech. Maybe you enjoy being told what to think and do, not everyone does.

This is a Ru Paul interview

www.thewrap.com/rupaul-explains-why-we-are-all-god-in-drag/

I appreciate what he is saying, he also doesn’t make it about women here though.

I’m tired and waffling

I’m not actually on a side

I don’t really feel offended by appropriating this type of femininty because I didn’t like it for myself anyway. I don’t feel like anyone has taken anything from me, I am just me. If they want to wear crazy heels, this doesn’t affect me. It hasn’t changed my gender

When it comes to SS and other men who do not want to actually transition, they seem to want to be able to access very dramatic gender roles. They seem to be over dramatised (like drag lite) I think because otherwise it wouldn’t feel as significant. Wearing a pair of pink ugg boots wouldn’t be Enough. This is about whatever they feel they need to access within themselves to counteract what horrible feelings they seem to have of being a misfit

Like being a punk, what’s the point in only doing it half assed? Perhaps they feel they need to go all out to make it worth it 🤷🏻‍♀️

Question- how do the majority of people on here giving such phobic opinions on this cope with single sex toilets? This is the way things are moving now folks... get with it.

Single sex toilets are great.

how do the majority of people on here giving such phobic opinions on this cope with single sex toilets?

Quite marvellously, I'd imagine. As single sex toilets are the established norm...

Oohhh now...nasty. just sayin there's a lot of phobic comments & bullshitty 'its so harmful to women' bollocks on here. Its just ignorance & fear & get this... this is the way the world is moving so you'll have to figure out how you'll cope *hidingplace.

If you have someone in your family who is non binary its not hard to understand why you might have a different opinion than the majority... and be more open to such things. You know... not difficult to get really!!

When it comes to SS and other men who do not want to actually transition, they seem to want to be able to access very dramatic gender roles [...] This is about whatever they feel they need to access within themselves to counteract what horrible feelings they seem to have of being a misfit

Which is why gender is regressive bullshit. Sam Smith should feel free to be whatever version of a male-bodied human being he is without trying to second-guess any of it. Be yourself - no one else can.

You're either a man or a woman. It's biology. The rest is personalities

This is my view. However I can't see what harm Sam Smith is doing. I've read nine pages and I still can't see what harm it does to refer to them as they if that's what they want.

Yes it seems odd but not harmful.

Self identifying transwomen having access to women's shelters or taking part in women's sports for example has obvious potential issues. People defining themselves as gender non binary is just a person's choice.

I say let people who they want to be as long as they are not hurting someone else.

"because I never fucking said that did I? I have a different opinion. I never said I was more open minded

Don’t misquote people on purpose"

Read the thread and chill the fuck out, I was quoting another poster so wind your neck in.

If you have someone in your family who is non binary

Everyone on the planet is non-binary. It just means 'likes a range of stuff'.

Everyone on the planet is also a male or female.

Yes Sam should feel free to be just Sam, with no reference to women

So why doesn’t he?

Because it is easier to appropriate femininity than challenge the definition of masculinity.
That’s not SS’s fault

I can't see what harm Sam Smith is doing. I've read nine pages and I still can't see what harm it does to refer to them as they if that's what they want.

Oh, I'm with you on the be who you want element. But if you read what SS actually said - about thinking like a woman, having to put up with the womanly traits of SS's body - well, I'm afraid SS does come across as a bit of a misogynist, honestly. Lumping all women together as a homogenous group who think the same and have lumpy bodies, to boot. Not cool.

@PookieDo

I think if it was more acceptable to be a flamboyant male, accepted by other men then they would not feel the need to go down the road of parodying women in such a flamboyant manner.

Agreed. But therefore this is then an issue that needs to be addressed by men to other men. The problem is it's always women having to make allowances. SS should lobby the men about their attitudes... not go on some bizarre diatribe about sometimes "thinking like a woman"... To me 'thinking like a woman' if such a notion exists is being aware of who is walking near me whilst I walk home on a late night. It's being seen not to make the tea/coffee too much at work lest I become the 'tea girl'. Oh how I wish my only consideration as a woman were based on what lipstick I should wear.

It's not the job of women to go around appeasing and making space for men who fancy wearing bright lipstick and a dress. It again places us as second-class even in our very own sex&gender!.

On a separate note I also take issue with drag. But that's for a separate thread. There's a lot of drag-queens and homosexual men who think they get a free pass to behave in misogynistic ways and use abhorrent language about women whilst flying under the cloak of their 'sexuality' or 'drag-queeness'.

However I can't see what harm Sam Smith is doing

He is an adult human male. He is not a toddler who thinks he is a dog/car/plane/whatever.

it is easier to appropriate femininity than challenge the definition of masculinity.
That’s not SS’s fault

Who's fault is it then? Genuinely - I am not being snarky. If SS, who has presumably considered this issue in depth, as they feel strongly about it, cannot be responsible for talking responsibly about gender issues ... who can? Who should we blame for it?

Because if you say you don't believe in any of this gender bullshit, you're apparently radical, woman-hating, bigoted ... the list goes on.

@NoSquirrels

But I don’t think he really he hasn’t verbalised himself well. I wonder if he meant that he didnt want man boobs and suffered with them and his weight, and was unhappy. He didn’t like the way he looked because he quite very clearly looked very male, but had what felt like female parts. He didn’t like them on him - not that he thinks they are something awful for actual women.

To be honest if he grew a pair of breasts people would be just as awful towards him if not worse

I'm talking about toilets that aren't gendered where all genders use them. There's a lot of ignorance trying-to-be-clever comments on here. Please don't deliberately misunderstand me. To me this petty mindedness is way more irritating than this non binary issue. Whether its liked or not, its there & personally I don't think its anyone else's business