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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask why I feel sex work is a bit wrong?

327 replies

sweatyscruffy · 15/09/2019 19:57

So I'm fully preparing to get flamed here!
Bf came round last night, I asked her how it was going as her university friends have moved in with her and her dh for a while. Bf's friend was doing webcam work with her dp previously and they were continuing to earn an absolute mint doing it (£30,000 in three months once!) I don't really see anything wrong with it as it's doing what they do anyway with a few cameras filming. The other girl is a medical professional, also part time escort. My bf was telling me about it as if it was the best thing ever. Apparently the agency only takes on clients earning over £50,000, and only contracts girls who know how to talk to and entertain very rich men. It involves a lot of trips to London and Europe, occasionally Dubai. Maybe I sound jealous but the whole thing made me a bit sad. Yes she's a grown woman, yes she knows what she's doing but imagine having to pretend that you find these old men interesting or sexually attractive?
She apparently specifies 40+ men only so she gets the really rich ones so I bet there's a good chance a lot of them are married, not that it's her fault they're choosing to sleep with prostitutes. I try so hard to be ok with it and think of it as feminist but I still feel it's a bit seedy. I'm trying so hard to not judge!

OP posts:
GlasshouseStoneThrower · 18/09/2019 08:13

I can guarantee none of them care if you say 'buy' or 'use' or 'use as a service'.

I'm not disputing your experiences. They're different to mine. I'm on the board of trustees for a rape crisis centre which does outreach work with sex workers. I also used to work for a sexual health charity that had a sex worker focus group. In my experience, they say it's dehumanising and harmful when people consider them commodities who can be bought. This is also something I've read over and over again in accounts from sex workers.

Sex workers are obviously not one homogenous group and it's not at all surprising that there is a wide diversity of views among them. But I won't be persuaded that agreeing with punters who view sex workers as objects is helpful to them, and I think we have a duty to do no harm.

oabiti · 18/09/2019 08:13

Legalising prostitution will make no difference to the trauma that some of these women feel. It will make no difference in the cases of rape, either. Outside prostitution, have you seen the amount of men who are convicted for rape? Exactly

But let's forget about the law for a minute. Because whether sex work is legal/illegal is not really the issue.

There is a certain type of man who buys a prostitute. Sure, a few men may think about it, but I'm on about the type that do it.

These men do believe, and get a kick out of, the thought that this woman is at their mercy. They know she wouldn't be doing it if it was free. They know that she needs the money.

They can say and do the most disgusting things to her and know they'll be no repercussions.

Even if they are 'respectful' to her, there's still a power imbalance.

Most of these men have wives at home. So they have that safety net to visit a prostitute without it affecting their status quo (until the wife finds out).

And do you think the man is giving a second thought to the 'slut' that he has fucked while the wife is feeding the baby?

By and large, women, as a whole, put up with a lot more shit from men because (we believe) they hold most of the power. You only have to look on the boards on here. You only have to listen to your friends. You only have to look on the news. It's the reality. And it doesn't matter how much we kid ourselves, the truth remains.

ReanimatedSGB · 18/09/2019 08:20

I think it's hugely important to note that women who have been abused by their partners can suffer from PTSD, and that two women a week are killed by current or former partners. Banning sex work isn't going to have any effect on this.

ReanimatedSGB · 18/09/2019 08:22

And I also agree with glasshouse, and have heard it from people I know who either do sex work or are involved with sex worker support: many sex workers resent and object to being told that they are selling themselves rather than their services.

LiveInAHidingPlace · 18/09/2019 08:22

"I'm on the board of trustees for a rape crisis centre which does outreach work with sex workers. I also used to work for a sexual health charity that had a sex worker focus group."

I'm going to say right here that your experience doesn't sound very grassroots. Focus groups and boards of trustees are generally the enemies in my world.

LiveInAHidingPlace · 18/09/2019 08:23

But at the same time, just like whatever. I can't be arsed honestly. You see it one way, I see it another. So theres' nothing more to be said really.

GlasshouseStoneThrower · 18/09/2019 08:29

I'm going to say right here that your experience doesn't sound very grassroots. Focus groups and boards of trustees are generally the enemies in my world.

This is a pretty unfair thing to say. Our focus group was organised and led by sex workers, and I only ever attended on a note-taking basis. And re the rape crisis centre's outreach group, I don't know how much more grass-roots something can be than having sex workers run a programme for the benefit of other sex workers.

You don't know anything about the work we do, so describing it as 'the enemy' based on no information is really not fair.

You'll note I haven't cast any negative aspersions on the work you do, because I don't know enough about it and I think it would be wrong to try to discredit it just because I don't agree with your stance.

Ahundredpercentthatbitch · 18/09/2019 09:06

they say it's dehumanising and harmful when people consider them commodities who can be bought.

But it's the men buying them who think of them this way.

I would even go so far as to say that the reasons men use prostitutes are the same reasons that men rape - they feel entitled to use a woman's body for sex, they don't care or respect whether she wants to, and they enjoy the power.

For punters, the power imbalance, the dehumanisation IS THE POINT.

OccidentalPurist · 18/09/2019 09:17

For punters, the power imbalance, the dehumanisation IS THE POINT.

This!

I can't help but think your BF's friend is going to be adversely changed long term by this. It will really hollow her out emotionally, so YANBU!

LiveInAHidingPlace · 18/09/2019 10:07

glass it's really not about that, it's about the fact that you seem clueless, the typical "I want to help these poor women" type.

GlasshouseStoneThrower · 18/09/2019 10:20

it's really not about that, it's about the fact that you seem clueless, the typical "I want to help these poor women" type

I think you're simply finding it easier to try and discredit me as an individual than to try and argue with the things I've said.

I'm pretty thick skinned so it doesn't offend me. It just makes me think that you find it easier to pretend I'm a clueless idiot than to challenge what I'm saying.

Propertyofhood · 18/09/2019 10:41

For punters, the power imbalance, the dehumanisation IS THE POINT.

This!

ReanimatedSGB · 18/09/2019 11:11

What I find a bit clueless is the insistence that sex workers can only be listened to or believed if they accept victim status. It's now considered baseline reasonable and ethical to believe women who say they have been assaulted or otherwise abused - why should we not believe women who say that they consider sex acts for pay consensual? They may not consider these sex acts enjoyable, but they have chosen to engage in them for cash. Why are they not to be allowed this much autonomy?

Ahundredpercentthatbitch · 18/09/2019 11:56

Because coercing consent with payment is per se an abusive act - regardless of whether or not the victim perceives it as such.

sillage · 18/09/2019 15:22

"The rights of those who pay for sex doesn't factor in my thoughts at all."

In my city, there are an estimated 20 punters for every prostitute, so you damned well better get onto factoring sex-purchasing men into you thoughts.

You're directly affirming the rights of men to pay for sex. I know you say you feel really bad about affirming men's right to pay for sex, but you're still affirming men's right to pay for sex when you ask for decriminalization. You say you feel helpless to change men's behavior in any way whatsoever, so you think building better hookers to prevent and withstand the constant assaults by men is the way to go.

Your repeated refrain that rape victims should "protect themselves" is the most victim-blaming thought expressed here. Victims of other violent crimes are not expected to shoulder all the burden to protect themselves from being criminally assaulted.

Domestic violence victims aren't told to live in group housing so each time someone's husband attacks the women should grab weapons and fight him off. That would be barbaric.

Your victim-blaming solution for prostituted rape victims "defending themselves" from men who attack them is an abandonment of those women and a dereliction of civilized community to deal with violent men.

BanKittenHeels · 18/09/2019 15:38

Very well said sillage.

sillage · 18/09/2019 15:40

I can't think of a worse person to serve on the board of a rape crisis centre than someone who believes men's sexual violence is an unstoppable force of nature that women just have to learn to accept for what it is and try to keep themselves safe from as much as they can.

Fuck that patriarchal noise from 1950.

GlasshouseStoneThrower · 18/09/2019 15:51

In my city, there are an estimated 20 punters for every prostitute, so you damned well better get onto factoring sex-purchasing men into you thoughts.

I said I don't factor the rights of men who pay for sex into my thoughts, not that I don't factor the men themselves into my thoughts. You quoted me directly so it's hard for me to understand why you would then go on to misrepresent me in the next breath.

You're directly affirming the rights of men to pay for sex. I know you say you feel really bad about affirming men's right to pay for sex, but you're still affirming men's right to pay for sex when you ask for decriminalization.

I didn't say this at any point. Are you confusing me with someone else?

Since criminalising prostitution did absolutely nothing to protect sex workers or to stop sex work from occurring, I am of the view that sex workers should be allowed to make use of whatever measures they want and need to work safely, and this requires decriminalisation.

You say you feel helpless to change men's behavior in any way whatsoever, so you think building better hookers to prevent and withstand the constant assaults by men is the way to go.

Again, not something I said. Please feel free to have an argument with an imaginary opponent if you wish, but don't ascribe their views to me.

'Hookers' is a perjorative term. Extensive research has demonstrated that using terms like this contributes to the dehumanisation of sex workers and leads to such negative consequences as the public caring less when a sex worker is raped or murdered than when the victim is not a sex worker.

I have never made any suggestion that we should 'build' sex workers who can 'withstand' assault. Wherever did you get that idea?

I want sex workers to be given the same employment rights and protections as anyone else, and the same lack of stigma, to enable them to work as safely as possible.

Your repeated refrain that rape victims should "protect themselves" is the most victim-blaming thought expressed here. Victims of other violent crimes are not expected to shoulder all the burden to protect themselves from being criminally assaulted.

You are determined to conflate sex work with violent crime. It's important to distinguish them so that sex workers who are the victims of violent crime (or any abuse of any kind) are able to seek the same kind of help as any other person without the fear that someone like you will simply view it as the inevitable part and parcel of their job.

It is not victim blaming to listen to sex workers when they say 'we would like to be able to unionise and work together' and accept that they are right about the working conditions they need.

Domestic violence victims aren't told to live in group housing so each time someone's husband attacks the women should grab weapons and fight him off. That would be barbaric.

This is a total non-sequitur.

We aren't talking about a choice between decriminalising sex work, and sex work not existing. If we were, I would agree with you.

But as you are well aware, making sex work illegal doesn't prevent it from happening.

The choice is therefore between sex work in the safest possible environment, and sex work in a dangerous environment.

Your victim-blaming solution for prostituted rape victims "defending themselves" from men who attack them is an abandonment of those women and a dereliction of civilized community to deal with violent men.

And your solution is 'better to force these women to work in the least safe conditions possible, better to force them to work alone, better to make it illegal for them to take any of the steps they want to take for their own protection, because it makes me feel better to pretend that if we make sex work illegal it will stop it from happening'.

Ahundredpercentthatbitch · 18/09/2019 15:51

Yes exactly. Put it all back on the victims as usual. ‘Rapists gonna rape’...

GlasshouseStoneThrower · 18/09/2019 15:52

I can't think of a worse person to serve on the board of a rape crisis centre than someone who believes men's sexual violence is an unstoppable force of nature that women just have to learn to accept for what it is and try to keep themselves safe from as much as they can.

Again, not something I have said.

I can't accept that you're here in good faith if you're going to continue to wilfully misrepresent everything I have said, and to invent totally novel arguments and pretend that I made them.

There is nothing stopping you from making the points you wish to make without attempting to bolster them by ascribing invented views to me.

GlasshouseStoneThrower · 18/09/2019 16:00

I'm not engaging with this thread any more, because having re-read both of @sillage's comments again I don't have any confidence that you will listen to me, or that you will stop pretending I have made points which I didn't.

The point of debates like this is never to convince the person you're arguing with. It's a well known psychological truth that the more stringently two people debate a subject online, the more entrenched in their positions they become. That's true whatever the subject.

The purpose of the argument is, and always has been, to show those who are affected where you stand. In this case, it's for me to reaffirm that sex workers aren't objects, that they don't sell their bodies, that they have the same rights as anyone else over their bodies, that perjorative terms like 'hooker' aren't accepted, that their rights to safety are understood and accepted. It's to challenge the narrative of others on here that it doesn't matter if sex workers are made less safe so long as you can comfort yourselves that it's not legal.

I'm comfortable that I've achieved that purpose; there is therefore no further benefit in me trying to debate with you when you are only interested in what you're pretending I've said anyway.

sillage · 18/09/2019 16:16

Some sex workers prefer being called hookers. Many sex workers in legal pornography have signed contracts to be called hookers and other things (do an internet search for "cumbucket"). I thought you'd have more respect for the agency of legal sex workers in the porn industry to make their own decisions about how their employees advertise their occupation.

It's always a good time for an Andrea Dworkin quote, this one reminds men they are humans who can make necessary changes if they had the will to do so:

“I don’t believe rape is inevitable or natural. If I did, I would have no reason to be here. If I did, my political practice would be different than it is. Have you ever wondered why we [women] are not just in armed combat against you? It’s not because there’s a shortage of kitchen knives in this country. It is because we believe in your humanity, against all the evidence.”

ReanimatedSGB · 18/09/2019 17:58

Because coercing consent with payment is per se an abusive act - regardless of whether or not the victim perceives it as such.

Do you honestly not understand how dangerous it is to insist that you/'society' get to decide whether or not a person has consented to a sexual act? If women are to maintain full bodily autonomy and human rights, that has to include the right to make choices about their own bodies that others may disapprove of.

coatlessinspokane · 18/09/2019 18:04

It’s odd. Why would you want to sleep with someone who doesn’t really want to sleep you, who wouldn’t sleep with you if you weren’t paying them?

sillage · 18/09/2019 18:25

SGB, it's not society telling women what they can do with their bodies, it's society telling men what they can't do with their money.

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