To ask why I feel sex work is a bit wrong?

[sweatyscruffy]

So I'm fully preparing to get flamed here!
Bf came round last night, I asked her how it was going as her university friends have moved in with her and her dh for a while. Bf's friend was doing webcam work with her dp previously and they were continuing to earn an absolute mint doing it (£30,000 in three months once!) I don't really see anything wrong with it as it's doing what they do anyway with a few cameras filming. The other girl is a medical professional, also part time escort. My bf was telling me about it as if it was the best thing ever. Apparently the agency only takes on clients earning over £50,000, and only contracts girls who know how to talk to and entertain very rich men. It involves a lot of trips to London and Europe, occasionally Dubai. Maybe I sound jealous but the whole thing made me a bit sad. Yes she's a grown woman, yes she knows what she's doing but imagine having to pretend that you find these old men interesting or sexually attractive?
She apparently specifies 40+ men only so she gets the really rich ones so I bet there's a good chance a lot of them are married, not that it's her fault they're choosing to sleep with prostitutes. I try so hard to be ok with it and think of it as feminist but I still feel it's a bit seedy. I'm trying so hard to not judge!

glass I mean, that wasn't even my point anyway. My point is that it's a stupid thing to argue about.

I care about women. Not about whether we can say a body is owned or not. Who cares how you phrase it? That's of no interest to me.

That's fine - it doesn't have to be interesting to you. I personally do care about it because it's an attitude that is harmful to women and actively contributes to the stigmatisation of sex workers (stigmatisation which often works to prevent them seeking support). For that reason I absolutely don't think it's stupid to argue about it.

With sex work, the woman’s body IS the product.

No, it isn't. Sex workers aren't slaves. They don't sell their bodies because selling something requires a transfer of ownership, and nothing a person does with their body compromises their right of ownership over it.

Sex work is selling a service (sex), not a product (bodies).

This is an attitude which is actively harmful to women. Even though it's not your intention, even though you want the opposite, what you are doing is normalising and promoting the idea that sex workers don't have the right to say no, that they are objects, that once men have paid them they can do whatever they like. None of that is true, and people believing that it is is harmful to sex workers.

You can be opposed to sex work without promoting this really dangerous and hostile concept that sex workers don't own their bodies.

This reminds me of all those 'therapists' (many of whom are peddling nonsense and bought their qualifications of the internet, but you even get this mindset among 'professional' ones) that everyone who does [thing] is mentally ill. Because they only ever see people with problems and people with no problems do not consult therapists,
Some people who have worked in the sex industry have been treated very badly and both I and many of those who do sex work voluntarily support their right to leave the industry, get help as and when they need it etc. But a lot of the 'rescue industry' is un helpful and sex workers would rather steer clear of it and of the authorities, Because they face deportation, or heavy pressure to exchange sex work for shitty, low-paid service jobs (no better options are offered them) and to denounce the entire industry and people they think of as friends.
While there are some posters on this thread concerned for the wellbeing of sex workers, there are others who are more fixated on their own disgust at the whole idea, and it's people like that who make it harder for people who want to move on from sex work to do so. There is no good reason that having previously done sex work should mean you can't get a professional job. Having done sex work doesn't automatically make you dishonest or unreliable - or stupid. Yet many people, even those who insist they feel sorry for sex workers and want them to find other sources of income, would refuse to employ them because, well, eww. Sex workers aren't people. Unless they are willing to play the helpless victim, they are not going to be listened to by abolitionists and rescuers - and if they want to step out of the helpless victim role, they are likely to be called pimps and enablers. And if they are not 'grateful' for the offer of minimum wage to scrub toilets instead of 'selling themselves' for a much higher hourly rate, they are 'beyond help.'

Glasshouse, thank you, you are absolutely right. Someone who pays a sex worker has not bought that person's body. If a client has bought a person's body, that means the client gets to keep the person in a box indefinitely, FFS. This is not what happens.

Oh I know lol.
I agree that exploitation is wrong regardless of the working industry. It's those that need help and their pimps and traffickers that need to weight of the law thrown at them. Same with the trafficked and exploited workers in fields etc.

I just detest that we are lumped into one stereotypical group.

I think there's also some confusion about the industry. There are the streetwalkers who take huge risks every time they get into a car for very, very little money - £25 to £50 as an average. Plus solicitation in this way is nickable. The pimped ones who need help to get out because those fuckers are bastards and their 'girls' cannot just walk away from it all. Then there are the escorts, who advertise online etc. Who offer incall/outcall and charge a lot more than the streetwalkers. Although some are pimped they usually charge less than average for that area.

They buy use of that person’s body.

They buy use of that person’s body.

Which you can appreciate is very different to buying the person's body.

And they don't buy unlimited use. They are only entitled to services which have been pre-agreed. This is also an important distinction.

What's so important is that we ensure that there is stigma and judgment free help and support for sex workers who don't feel that they have the right to say no to certain acts, or who operate in unsafe environments (for example, by working on the streets or for pimps). My view is that the best way to do this is decriminalisation, so that sex workers are empowered to operate in a way which is safe and allows them to enforce their boundaries.

I agree that exploitation is wrong regardless of the working industry. It's those that need help and their pimps and traffickers that need to weight of the law thrown at them. Same with the trafficked and exploited workers in fields etc

But do you see how your insistence that it’s all your choice and you just love getting fucked by ugly, old, married men all day long actively hurts those women who are being exploited?

That’s how the exploited ones get explained away and justified. Because people prefer to believe the ‘happy hooker’ trope.

Belle de fucking Jour has a lot to answer for.

Sex work fascinates me that a persons job is to have sex with possibly anyone.
It is there job a job creates income?!
It is not rape if two people consent.
If someone chooses to go to a sex worker they choose to have a need fulfilled as many partners withhold sex.
The drug side well I know many who do drugs in all industries and apparently lawyers are big on coke.. so who's not seedy?!
I mean if my miserable cousin hasn't been to a sex worker since he's allowed sex on his birthday or when she's ever in a good mood I wouldn't blame the poor barstard!
Each to there own I guess we could be to scared of there world compared to ours.

I don't get fucked all day long.

I don't think that people do believe the happy hooker thing. Just look at some of the previous posts on here alone that have lumped everyone together.

Most people believe the stereotypical side of it that we are all the same. It's this that does more harm to everyone. If I was pimped and reading some of the comments on here it would only further enforce what my pimp would be telling me. That I am nothing and everyone will see me as this if I were to try and find help.

And before anyone pulls me up. That's not how a pimp would phrase it. It would be harsher and violence involved.

This reminds me of all those 'therapists' (many of whom are peddling nonsense and bought their qualifications of the internet, but you even get this mindset among 'professional' ones) that everyone who does [thing] is mentally ill. Because they only ever see people with problems and people with no problems do not consult therapists,

This is very sensible, thank you SGB and also thank you Springtrolls for your posts.

But do you see how your insistence that it’s all your choice and you just love getting fucked by ugly, old, married men all day long actively hurts those women who are being exploited?

This is not Springroll's responsibility.

Women who are exploited are hurt by the people who are exploiting them, and failed by the people who don't do their job to protect them e.g. police, parents.

Not other sex workers.

AsTheWorldTurns Thank you.

The whole set up reads like a Jackie Collin novel, and I fear your friend my be pulling your leg.

"Escort agencies" are pimps, so the only aim is to extract the fee from the john. The pimp won't give a shit if if he earns more than 50000 or not, just that the john has the fee for that particular transaction.

As for only seeing "rich clients", why would their earning power be of relevance to your friend who is shagging them for coin?

@GinDaddy - other prostitutes have shared their experiences on this thread. Why does only the ‘happy hooker’ get your thanks for sharing her experience of the ‘industry’ and not the ones who felt dehumanised, had a ‘coworker’ who had their teeth knocked out or discussing rectal prolapses? I wonder...

Didn’t you like my perspective on the “industry” @GinDaddy? Bit too real hearing about teenagers AKA me, getting anally raped, was if? JFC.

Why not just stick to the glam side and forget the thousands of women on the realistic side who get battered and raped daily.

Bit too real hearing about teenagers AKA me, getting anally raped, was if? JFC

But it’s just a job like any other, right? @BanKittenHeels.

It baffles me that woman will argue so strongly for men’s right to buy them.

It baffles me that so many women will argue so strongly to prohibit another woman from choosing what to do with her own body.

Women who are exploited are hurt by the people who are exploiting them, and failed by the people who don't do their job to protect them e.g. police, parents.

Not other sex workers.

You don’t think the people shouting “but I love it” lets the chattering classes, police and politicians worry a little less about prostitution? The patter of “it’s a choice, I’m empowered, I’m a business woman” allows society to turn a blind eye to it and bundle all prostitution up as “sex work” and parrot neat little phrases like “sex work is work”.

@Lifecraft - if you can’t think of a reason why women are against men being able to buy access to a woman’s body, you should read the posts from prostitutes on this thread, read the AMA posted by a prostitute on mumsnet recently, read about why prostitutes became prostitutes and why. Consider why you didn’t ‘choose’ to be a prostitute, consider why most women don’t. Prostitutes have higher rates of PTSD than soldiers (as already previously stated on this thread), got ‘into it’ at a young age, have been abused at some point before ‘choosing’ to become a prostitute, are trafficked, coerced, have no other choice, have addictions, need help and support to get out of the ‘industry’, are pimped, reaped, hurt and much, much more.

TheRoyalCorgi - None of that gives you or me the right to tell a grown adult what she can and can't do with her own body.

@lifecraft - I never tell a woman what to do with her body. I think there should be more help for the women that do it and stronger punishment for the men who pay for women, abuse them and rape them and refuse to pay them and pimp them and traffick them and blackmail them and more. It makes me feel physically sick to know what happens to prostitutes and other sex work each and every day all around the work under the guise of ‘they chose it’ ‘getting paid for sex is great’ ‘it’s a job’ while simultaneously ignoring most women don’t choose it freely, it’s dangerous, women and children are damaged physically and mentally by this ‘work’ and killed because of it, the police don’t help when they’re raped, leaving is hard and much worse.

For those who are opposed to decriminalisation, what do you think the solution is?

The current set up isn't working. It isn't preventing trafficking, it isn't keeping sex workers safe, it contributes to stigma, it prevents sex workers from seeking healthcare and reporting crimes. It makes it illegal for sex workers to work together to protect themselves.

The Royal College of Nursing, The English Collective of Prostitutes, the Sex Work Research Hub, Amnesty International and the WHO are all in favour of decriminalisation. They have all taken an evidence-based approach to the issue and concluded that decriminalisation is safer for sex workers.

I don't think this requires us to buy into the narrative that sex work is always a glamorous and empowering thing. A large percentage of sex workers have experienced violence, poverty, abuse, drug addiction etc before becoming sex workers. This is clearly an issue we need to address (specifically by addressing the root causes of these things). But the evidence shows that in the meantime, our current laws are causing sex workers harm and preventing them from seeking help.

You don’t think the people shouting “but I love it” lets the chattering classes, police and politicians worry a little less about prostitution? The patter of “it’s a choice, I’m empowered, I’m a business woman” allows society to turn a blind eye to it and bundle all prostitution up as “sex work” and parrot neat little phrases like “sex work is work”.

I think, that like with most nuanced ethical issues, there's going to be sensible people arguing both for and against what you believe in and there's no point in trying to form a consensus.

Sex work is very much a live and let live situation, you're going to have to accept that there are women who want to do sex work and will make no apologies for it, and I'm not sure why they should.

Of course there are women who are coerced into sex work, this is for the most part a symptom of broader illegal activity which should be really a top priority for any police force as I think you'd probably find the most despicable criminals of all involved in such trade.