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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask why I feel sex work is a bit wrong?

327 replies

sweatyscruffy · 15/09/2019 19:57

So I'm fully preparing to get flamed here!
Bf came round last night, I asked her how it was going as her university friends have moved in with her and her dh for a while. Bf's friend was doing webcam work with her dp previously and they were continuing to earn an absolute mint doing it (£30,000 in three months once!) I don't really see anything wrong with it as it's doing what they do anyway with a few cameras filming. The other girl is a medical professional, also part time escort. My bf was telling me about it as if it was the best thing ever. Apparently the agency only takes on clients earning over £50,000, and only contracts girls who know how to talk to and entertain very rich men. It involves a lot of trips to London and Europe, occasionally Dubai. Maybe I sound jealous but the whole thing made me a bit sad. Yes she's a grown woman, yes she knows what she's doing but imagine having to pretend that you find these old men interesting or sexually attractive?
She apparently specifies 40+ men only so she gets the really rich ones so I bet there's a good chance a lot of them are married, not that it's her fault they're choosing to sleep with prostitutes. I try so hard to be ok with it and think of it as feminist but I still feel it's a bit seedy. I'm trying so hard to not judge!

OP posts:
Labradoodlesnoodles · 17/09/2019 22:28

Bloody hell, I'm naive I know but I googled punternet as I didn't think it could actually exist, and I am horrified. In that case, the power balance is completely screwed. In that instance it can not be right as the view of the women is disgusting.

Heartshapedbox11 · 17/09/2019 22:35

I sometimes think that the patriarchy created such a greedy consumerist society just to temp women into sex work.

We now have professional women bedding men for money and a taste of a jet set lifestyle.
Students dating older men so they can have designer handbags and the rent paid on a nice flat.
Mums doing cam work after their kids are in bed so their kids can have PlayStation and iPhones.

They keep pushing this lifestyle on us that we just have to have, things we just need to own. So we offer up our pussys for a taste of the life we think we need.

sillage · 17/09/2019 22:47

If "tempting" women into prostitution was what was going on with prostitution, there would not be millions of girls and women deceived and forced into prostitution by pimps and traffickers. That's not what's going on with prostitution.

Fact is, most economically desperate girls and women who know they could feed their families in the short term through prostitution still go to work in abysmal conditions for very low pay because they've seen what happened to the girls who tried to get out of poverty through prostitution.

GlasshouseStoneThrower · 17/09/2019 22:50

And yet men keep on bashing, burning, slashing, punching, raping and murdering prostituted women regardless.

Which is exactly why sex workers need to be allowed to work in the way that is safest to them - with others, in complete control of their own bookings, with security and in a safe place. All things not currently possible. And it's exactly why we need to destigmatize sex work, so that women who have been abused or who are working in unsafe environments are empowered to report, and to seek help.

It doesn't really matter what I 'say' does it? When a man pays for sex he believes he has rights over the body of the woman he pays. He believes she is an object to be brought. That's what matters. Because that is how women in prostitution end up injured, murdered, dehumanised.

On the contrary, what you say matters very much. Because if you insist on sharing the message that sex workers are selling their bodies, you're confirming to all of those men you're talking about that they are right. You're telling them that sex workers are objects, that men can do what they like to them, that they don't have the right to say no.

Words have power. Just as we know that making jokes about rape encourages rapists to think they their behaviour is tolerated in society, when you say 'sex workers sell their bodies' you're encouraging men to think this too. You are actively contributing to the harm of sex workers.

I can say 'men don't have rights over the bodies of sex workers' until the cows come home. It doesn't matter a shite. Men aren't going to care are they? Because men believe they own the women they pay (they wouldn't pay women for sex otherwise would they?) The very act of paying a woman for sex means that they believe they have bought her and can therefore do whatever they want to her. And that is what is dehumanising.

I don't think you should actively support the attitudes of these men just because you think you can't change them. You can. We all can. We are all responsible for continually challenging the message that sex workers are objects to be bought, that they can't say no, that they are dehumanised. We are all responsible for changing attitudes so that people know that buying sex is not the same as buying a body, that sex workers have the same right as anyone to say no at any time, that sex workers have bodily autonomy. We shouldn't encourage men to think it's acceptable for them to act as though they are buying a person when they pay for sex.

Obviously it was an edited programme, but when I watched the 'Mega Brothel' documentary, none of the women seemed 'empowered'. None of them.

Apologies, perhaps I haven't been clear. I don't mean to suggest that I think sex work is automatically empowering. What I mean is that sex workers should feel empowered to take the steps they need to protect themselves. By which I mean, they should feel safe in their work environments; they should feel confident in their right and ability to refuse to participate at any time; they should feel confident that they could report abuse to the police and be taken seriously without repercussions for them or their colleagues; they should feel able to seek healthcare without judgment; they should be able to unionise; they should be allowed to work together for their own safety. Under our current model, these things are not possible for the vast majority of sex workers. I think sex workers would be much safer if they were.

sillage · 17/09/2019 23:06

"Which is exactly why sex workers need to be allowed to work in the way that is safest to them"

...by giving the #1 danger to prostituted women all the access to women's bodies their money can buy??

"Words have power."

Why do you think Mumsnetters' words have all the word power over men who (ab)use prostituted women but Punternettters words have little influence on other punters?

Go to a porn website and see how leaders of the multi-billion dollar sex industry title the videos of prostituted women being prostituted. Look at pornography titles and teaser content and explain to me how the sex INDUSTRY you're defending is making the j-jobs of being prostituted safer for their e-employees.

"We shouldn't encourage men to think it's acceptable for them to act as though they are buying a person when they pay for sex."

How does this work when BDSM is protected sex acts? You're a fool to expect that men paying to ram a woman's vagina and/or anus with foreign objects will draw a line at choking her.

I hear your, "If you let men have easier access to prostitutes then surely they will rape them more gently" and dismiss it as naive idiocy.

ReanimatedSGB · 17/09/2019 23:14

There are men who think that marriage gives them ownership over women's bodies - and, in some cases, ownership over the bodies of any children born in the marriage. There are men who think that they have the right to kill their own children if, for instance, they discover - or suspect- that the woman they believe they own is planning to leave them or does leave them and takes the children with her.

This is, of course, disgusting and abhorrent and an attitude that needs to be stamped out. But you don't see very many people suggesting that the way to prevent these men holding and acting on their disgusting opinions is to ban marriage. Nor do women in happy marriages get told that they are to blame for the fact that some other women are in abusive marriages.

LiveInAHidingPlace · 17/09/2019 23:16

sgb but we hardly see the same numbers of women being murdered/raped in marriage as we do in prostitution, do we? So it's not really the same thing.

BanKittenHeels · 17/09/2019 23:49

Buying sex is buying a body. It is buying access to a body. You can’t get sex from a fridge, you get it from another human. Sex is unlike other services, you very rarely get PTSD from giving a manicure, washing windows, performing a tracheotomy, waking dogs.

I had a diagnosis of PTSD after the second incidence of being fucked for money. At the time those men were gentle and didn’t physically hurt me, the sex occurred in clean hotels and I was given presents. I was paid well.

The men who caused prolapse, who beat me, who choked me came after the PTSD was caused and believe me they didn’t book for those service, I had no option to decline. When do you have the option to decline someone spitting their shit into your mouth?

Temporairy · 18/09/2019 00:05

I agree with that post @bankittenheels - my PTSD is from ‘sex work’, not my bad marriage, my abusive relationship or a rubbish job.

GlasshouseStoneThrower · 18/09/2019 06:41

...by giving the #1 danger to prostituted women all the access to women's bodies their money can buy??

No - the exact opposite. As the law stands, sex workers have very limited options to protect themselves. They aren't allowed to work with other sex workers, they aren't allowed to work in a shared house with security, and they aren't able to report abusers if they have broken any of the current laws because if they do there will be negative repercussions which could endanger the safety of their colleagues.

Under our current rules, sex work is still happening. In countries where it's totally illegal, it's still happening. But where it's illegal (even where partially legal, like in the UK), it's pushed underground and women have few means of taking any steps to protect themselves.

And along side giving women the right to protect themselves without fear of repercussions we need a massive attitude change to sex workers. We need to stop stigmatising it so that women who have been sex workers and then want to stop aren't trapped in it because nobody else will consider them for employment. We need to challenge every single time the notion that paying for sex gives you any right of ownership over the sex worker's body, or that you have 'unfettered access' because you have paid for sex. We need to constantly challenge the idea that sex workers can't consent, that they aren't allowed to say no.

If you have a simple solution to ending sex work then by all means share it, but if you're just going to bury your head in the sand and try to pretend that making it illegal helps women when all the evidence is to the contrary, you're not helping sex workers.

Why do you think Mumsnetters' words have all the word power over men who (ab)use prostituted women but Punternettters words have little influence on other punters?

Where in the world did you get the idea that I think this? I haven't said anything about Punternet. I certainly haven't defended it or implied that I think it's harmless.

I'm addressing you as a mumsnet user because that's the site we are on. I'm telling you that if you insist on telling everyone that sex workers sell their bodies, you are normalising an attitude which is incredibly harmful, and you are making the men who think this way feel justified because other people also think it's true.

Go to a porn website and see how leaders of the multi-billion dollar sex industry title the videos of prostituted women being prostituted. Look at pornography titles and teaser content and explain to me how the sex INDUSTRY you're defending is making the j-jobs of being prostituted safer for their e-employees.

I'm not defending the porn industry and haven't talked about it on this thread. Are you confusing me with another poster?

How does this work when BDSM is protected sex acts? You're a fool to expect that men paying to ram a woman's vagina and/or anus with foreign objects will draw a line at choking her.

I don't know what you mean by 'BDSM is protected sex acts', sorry.

I think that it a man rapes a sex worker, she should have not only the right to report it, but the expectation that she will be taken seriously and the confidence that if she reports it, she and / or her colleagues won't be punished if they have broken any of the current laws (such as soliciting or working together).

And more importantly, I think (and evidence shows) that there would be significantly less abuse of sex workers if (i) they were allowed to work in ways which protected them, and (ii) there wasn't a widespread attitude that sex workers sell their bodies and therefore have no right to say no.

I hear your, "If you let men have easier access to prostitutes then surely they will rape them more gently" and dismiss it as naive idiocy.

This is not what I've said at all. Again, I think you're possibly confusing me with someone else.

Men already have easy access to prostitutes. Even when prostitution was completely illegal, men had easy access to them. How do you propose to stop prostitution from occurring when you know that making it illegal doesn't work? What is your solution to that?

And what do you say to the fact that all evidence shows that making sex work illegal puts sex workers in greater danger, because they have no real means of protecting themselves?

Propertyofhood · 18/09/2019 06:43

GlasshouseStoneThrower

Do you understand why men pay sex workers? Do you think that its because its the only way they can get a shag and therefore they have to pay? It's not. Plenty of men who use prostitutes could have sex without paying for it. Plenty of men who use prostitutes also have sex with their wives or partners. Plenty of men who use prostitutes do it for the power. Because the act itself of paying for sex gives them that power. That's why they do it. The whole reason they do it is so that they can feel the power of 'buying a woman'.

So no, wagging a finger and saying 'well you do realise that you haven't actually bought her and she still has rights over her body' isn't going to make any difference to these men. If they knew that, they wouldn't pay for it in the first place, they would just have sex without paying.

And decriminalising prostitution just sends the message that what they are doing is OK, it legitimises the power trip.

Propertyofhood · 18/09/2019 06:56

We need to challenge every single time the notion that paying for sex gives you any right of ownership over the sex worker's body, or that you have 'unfettered access' because you have paid for sex. We need to constantly challenge the idea that sex workers can't consent, that they aren't allowed to say no.

You sound naive in the extreme.

What you have said above needs challenging is the entire point of going to a prostitute for a lot of men.

And, as I just said, if it is legalised, that whole notion is legitimised.

Think about it. Even in a perfectly legal brothel, do you think a manager is going to be OK with women who keep refusing to 'do their job' because they doesn't want to have sex with particular men? It's not very good for business is it? Would it be acceptable in other lines of work to be so 'choosy' about who you provide a service to?

You honestly think in a legalised system prostitutes would only have sex with men they really wanted to have sex with?

GlasshouseStoneThrower · 18/09/2019 06:58

@BanKittenHeels I am very conscious of your PTSD and your experiences sound very traumatising. I don't want to make that worse by responding to your post in a way which causes more harm or is distressing to you. So all I will say is that I would never support the decriminalisation of sex work if I thought the benefit of doing so was to make it easier for men to access sex workers. The rights of those who pay for sex doesn't factor in my thoughts at all. I am only in favour of decriminalisation because the evidence I have seen points to the conclusion that sex workers are safer when sex work is decriminalised.

That doesn't mean I think sex work is a great, empowering, fun thing. I would never try to challenge your experiences. I think a lot of sex workers have PTSD, and come from backgrounds where sex work didn't feel like a free choice, but felt like a necessity.

There is a whole raft of things that I think need to happen to address the current situation. I think we need to challenge the principles of austerity which have shaped this country for a decade now and left millions of people struggling to survive. I think we need a basic universal income. I think we need an end to zero hour contracts, and a mandatory living wage. I think we need better and more compassionate early intervention for those suffering from addiction. I think we need to continue the work of the #MeToo and #YesAllWomen movements which are helping to challenge sexist and patriarchal attitudes to women and women's bodies. We need more rape convictions, we need public campaigns about domestic abuse (in all its forms), we need harsher sentences for abusers.

There are other things as well, obviously - that's just a start.

These are all things which I think are essential in ending the best part of the demand for sex workers, ensuring that women never feel forced into sex work out of necessity, and protecting sex workers. Decriminalisation is just on part of a very complex picture, and I promise it has nothing to do with me peddling some barbie fantasy about fun, empowering jobs.

GlasshouseStoneThrower · 18/09/2019 07:08

You sound naive in the extreme.
*
What you have said above needs challenging is the entire point of going to a prostitute for a lot of men.
*
And, as I just said, if it is legalised, that whole notion is legitimised.

Prostitution is already legal. What isn't legal is soliciting or owning or operating a brothel. This latter rule means that if two sex workers wanted to share premises and hire a security guard to protect themselves, they are breaking the law. It forces women into unsafe situations.

Making prostitution illegal doesn't stop it happening.

Think about it. Even in a perfectly legal brothel, do you think a manager is going to be OK with women who keep refusing to 'do their job' because they doesn't want to have sex with particular men? It's not very good for business is it? Would it be acceptable in other lines of work to be so 'choosy' about who you provide a service to?

As has been said many times on this thread, sex work isn't like other forms of work, and I believe sex workers can and should have the right to say no at any time.

If a woman doesn't want to work as a sex worker she should be empowered to leave. Part of this involves the destigmatization of sex work so that she doesn't feel like having been a sex worker, she can't work elsewhere. Part of this means tackling the root causes of women who don't want to be sex workers feeling forced into it out of necessity (see my post below).

You honestly think in a legalised system prostitutes would only have sex with men they really wanted to have sex with?

I think this is much more likely in a system where prostitution is decriminalised than in one where it isn't, yes.

What's your solution? You know that making prostitution illegal doesn't stop it from happening. You know that sex workers are less safe in countries where sex work is illegal. What's your solution?

testing987654321 · 18/09/2019 07:14

Sex should always and only happen when both parties are enthusiastically wanting it to.

Remind me why women need to be paid for this?

GlasshouseStoneThrower · 18/09/2019 07:14

So no, wagging a finger and saying 'well you do realise that you haven't actually bought her and she still has rights over her body' isn't going to make any difference to these men. If they knew that, they wouldn't pay for it in the first place, they would just have sex without paying*

But you aren't just talking about not challenging men on this idea. You're going about sharing the same idea. You're telling men 'I agree, you are buying a body.'. I don't believe you can't see how harmful that is?

And what's worse, you're telling sex workers how you view them too. You're sharing with them your belief that something they've chosen to do has compromised their ownership over their bodies. As has been discussed, a lot of sex workers are vulnerable women, many of whom have experienced violence and abuse. I think we owe it to women to do better than to reinforce to them the notion that they are less human, have less bodily autonomy and have fewer rights than people who aren't sex workers.

And this isn't just semantics - there are real life consequences. Because your attitude that sex workers sell their bodies is victim blaming. It contributes to the stigma experienced by sex workers. It makes them less likely to report abuse or seek help, because they've been told they sold their bodies and therefore didn't have the right to say no.

There are real life consequences to the attitudes you promote.

Propertyofhood · 18/09/2019 07:28

Stop fucking blaming me. Stop taking the agency from these men by talking about what I'm telling them. They don't need me to tell them shit.

The word 'buy' in the dictionary is defined as 'to obtain in exchange for payment'.

It's the men who 'obtain in exchange for payment' not me. By very definition, women are being dehumanised because they are being 'obtained in exchange for payment'.

I don't understand how you think completely legalising prostitution will somehow magically make men suddenly respect the women they are paying for? It doesn't matter what I tell sex workers about how I view them because I'm not the one parting with my cash to have sex with them am I?

Of course I see sex workers as humans with automony over their bodies. Which is why I don't want to live in a society where men can obtain a woman in exchange for money. And especially not perfectly legally.

What are your problems with the Nordic model? Because for me that seems like the best solution, but honestly I probably don't know enough about it.

BanKittenHeels · 18/09/2019 07:28

But you aren't just talking about not challenging men on this idea. You're going about sharing the same idea. You're telling men 'I agree, you are buying a body.'. I don't believe you can't see how harmful that is?

Good God this is some Student Union debate night bollocks.

They are not buying a service, they are buying bodies. The damage they do to women doesn’t end when they ejaculate. If they thought they were just buying the service of sex they’d see it as pretty poor value, it isn’t the sex they get off on. It’s the control, the power, the filthy little secret.

Challenge austerity, challenge zero hours contracts, great that’s all very well and good but until society challenges the idea that men can buy women to rape, that men are the more violent sex, that men dominate society then sweet fuck all will change.

Propertyofhood · 18/09/2019 07:34

And if we are of the thinking that men are going to take notice when we 'challenge' their thinking, how we tell them that it's fucking disgusting to pay a woman to have sex with them in the first place and to stop doing it. And to only have sex with people who actually want to have sex with them without needing payment.

Rather than telling them that it's perfectly fine and dandy to pay another human being for sex, as long as they are 'respectful' about it.

GlasshouseStoneThrower · 18/09/2019 07:45

What are your problems with the Nordic model? Because for me that seems like the best solution, but honestly I probably don't know enough about it.

This is a helpful article which summarises investigations by Amnesty International and has quotes from several sex workers operating under the Nordic model:

https://www.thenation.com/article/amnesty-international-calls-for-an-end-to-the-nordic-model-of-criminalizing-sex-workers/

In summary, the Nordic model targets and unfairly penalises migrant workers, makes women less safe, reduces access to contraception, and prevents organisations from offering help and support.

I don't understand how you think completely legalising prostitution will somehow magically make men suddenly respect the women they are paying for?

I don't think this. As per my post below, I think there are lots of things that need to be done to challenge current attitudes to sex workers. But in the meantime, decriminalisation will allow women to take steps to protect themselves, and seek recourse from the police if they do experience abuse.

Stop fucking blaming me. Stop taking the agency from these men by talking about what I'm telling them. They don't need me to tell them shit*

This is a total cop out. Just like we are all responsible for preventing rape culture even if we aren't rapists, we are all responsible for preventing a culture that treats sex workers as commodities.

The word 'buy' in the dictionary is defined as 'to obtain in exchange for payment'.

You don't own a woman because you've paid her for sex.

If I pay a masseuse to give me a massage, do I own her? If I pay a gardener, do I own him?

Of course I don't.

So why is is only sex work that makes you think the person buying the service owns the person they are buying it from? Why don't you see sex workers as still owning themselves?

What you're saying is that sex workers are slaves. Why do you think that?

GlasshouseStoneThrower · 18/09/2019 07:48

how we tell them that it's fucking disgusting to pay a woman to have sex with them in the first place and to stop doing it. And to only have sex with people who actually want to have sex with them without needing payment.

I've got no problem with this message - I've said it myself many times. I still want to decriminalise sex work to make women safer.

LiveInAHidingPlace · 18/09/2019 07:53

"Good God this is some Student Union debate night bollocks."

Really. This. Navel gazing shit to get away from thinking about/doing something about the real issues at hand.

GlasshouseStoneThrower · 18/09/2019 07:56

Navel gazing shit to get away from thinking about/doing something about the real issues at hand

What hypocritical bullshit. What are you doing about the issues at hand? What's your magical solution?

LiveInAHidingPlace · 18/09/2019 07:58

"What hypocritical bullshit. What are you doing about the issues at hand? What's your magical solution?"

I don't have a magical solution but I volunteer with women who work prostitutes and also work with them as part of my job.

I can guarantee none of them care if you say 'buy' or 'use' or 'use as a service'.

BanKittenHeels · 18/09/2019 08:06

I’m with @live with
I can guarantee none of them care if you say 'buy' or 'use' or 'use as a service'
But I would go further and say most of the women I encounter (and work with woman at the coal face of prostitution as a front line HCP almost every single day and volunteer with women with children who are prositutes) want it to be known that men buy them, that they buy their bodies. This isn’t some neat little ideological exchange, these men are buying their body not just for sexual gratification but for so much more.
And these women don’t need student union politics and ideologies or even semantics, they need the johns to be seen for what they are. That’s what they beg for every.single.day.

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