delicate family problem, WWYD?

[sunflowers63]

Definitely NC for this. Will try and keep it short.

I live in the UK, my parents live in another country and I only see them every couple of years at the most, when they come here, usually for Xmas. I get on OK with them but my father can be a bit of a twat and our political views etc do not coincide. So I tend to be fairly superficial with him, otherwise I get annoyed.

I have a stepdaughter, who is 24 and at university. She is single at the moment, and is a very pretty, bright, fab girl all round. I have a brother, let’s call him Ted, who is 37 and lives in another country (not the one where my parents live, although that is not really relevant). My brother recently got divorced, after a pretty disastrous marriage which we in the family were all very sceptical about from the beginning (I kept my scepticism to myself and tried to be friendly to my SIL, however my parents, on the rare occasions when they met her, were quite rude to her and about her, and made it abundantly clear to my brother that they did not approve of her).

My parents are coming to us this Xmas. I was hoping that stepdaughter would also come home for Xmas, in the uni holidays. She has now told me that she won’t come while my parents are here because of something my father said to her a few months ago (when she happened to be visiting the country where my parents live). He reportedly said to her that she should sleep with Ted, in a jokey kind of way. I suppose he thought he was being funny and probably that he was complimenting my stepdaughter by saying that he wished poor divorced Ted could get such a lovely girl.

My stepdaughter was disgusted by this, she did not say anything to me immediately as she did not want to upset me (we are very close), but over the summer holidays, when I asked her if she was coming home for Xmas she said that she could not, because my father will be here, and she had to tell me why. I was embarrassed, horrified and had no idea what to say (still don’t). My DH does not think I should say anything to my parents, my father is likely to either have forgotten the incident altogether (very likely), just deny it, or to say it was just a joke and not understand why anyone would make a fuss.

Should I do anything about this? It is not difficult for my stepdaughter to avoid my parents, they are here once every two to three years at the most. I just feel sad and angry that she has to.

Even if they don't bring it up, you must say to your father and Mother and Brother exactly why Stepdaughter is not here. If he says (as he is likely to do) It was a joke. Look at him and ask, do you see me laughing about this? One member of my family cannot be with us Christmas Day because of something that you said to her.

It is most emphatically not about the money, I just mentioned that to illustrate how much planning and organisation has gone into this trip for them.

It does not feel nicely resolved, that is why I posted. After carefully reading all these responses I am going to write to my stepdaughter later and get some more thoughts from her about the points that have been made. She already told me that I should "just leave it" , not confront him and that she will just avoid him. I will check with her that is still what she wants and raise some of the points made here.

@AnotherEmma nope it's not in the op. What is said is: He reportedly said to her that she should sleep with Ted, in a jokey kind of way. I suppose he thought he was being funny

Note "reportedly". So as I pointed out if the father had made a comment among the lines of "be great if Ted could get a nice girl like you". The daughter may have interpreted that as you should have a sexual relationship with him and feel outraged. So it's her interpretation of a fairly imho innocent comment.

Like I said if he said "be great if you and Ted could have a shag". Inappropriate.

We don't actually know what was said.

What my stepdaughter actually said to me (of course I was not there so it is her account only): "he said I should f* Ted".

I also agree with previous posters who say this is a typical mumsnet overreaction. Yes, the world is changing for the better as regards awareness of sexist behaviour......but it's too late for some old people, they won't change and making a song and dance over an off the cuff remark is a bit OTT.

The SD sounds like a sensible young woman and I'm sure she can distinguish between letting this one go for the sake of family harmony (plus the fact that she might not ever even see him again) and being a doormat who is going to put up with "sexual harassment" from men all her life 🙄

(Major overreaction from the pp's terming this as sexual harrassment.)

OP - your SD sounds mature and sensible. Just speak to her and assure her that if he says anything at Christmas, you will deal with it there and then. But now is not the time to be bringing up a comment from months ago.

Good luck x

Honestly, it comes a time when you cannot longer impose a beloved but offensive member of your family onto other relatives without eventually damaging the relationships you have with other people.

I understand your reasons for not visiting but having them around for a month in Christmas really puts EVERYONE in awkward position where NOBODY has a good time just to adhere to your plans.

Gosh, are things so black and white that we have to take sides? I don’t think anyone has suggested what the OP’s dad said was ok or that the SD should just pretend nothing happened.

Just some posters have acknowledged the complexity of the situation and the seriousness of the OP either massively upsetting her elderly parents (including her mother who has done nothing wrong) or never seeing them again because of their age and distance to their home.

To the pesto thought it was ridiculous to mention dementia, theOP did sayher father has always said lewd things but increasingly so since getting old. It is widely known that disinhibited sexual behaviour can be a sympton of dementia, obviously it may not be that but it could.

www.alzheimers.org.uk/about-dementia/symptoms-and-diagnosis/symptons/losing-inhibitions

I think the point about knowing how to deal with horrible encounters is important. The fact SD doesn’t want this resolved, but wants to avoid OP’s father, puts the OPin an impossible position. I am in no way condoning the comments but I agree with other posters that avoidance is not an effective way of negotiating unpleasant or disgusting words.
I don’t know, I think at 24 the SD should be able to have a conversation with OP about it and not expect the family to be broken up because the elderly father said something gross.

Ooh, that's very crude @sunflowers63, I'd never be able to look at my father without feeling disgusted again. I really think you need to speak to him before he comes over. From your reaction you have no doubts, he said it.

Pesto! Poster

@Jesaminecollins
I blame his Mother for the way he is because she comes from Liverpool and has dragged up her son imho.
I hope this is a joke, your husband is 60+ and you’re blaming his mother and being from Liverpool?? Jesus wept, you’re as bad as him.

@sunflowers63
Why do you always bite your tongue over your dads views? Why do you pander to him? This is why he has no filter; nobody disagrees or calls him out.
I hope all the apologists have another think about a 76 yr old saying ‘you should fuck Ted’ to a 24 yr old woman 🤮

My stepdaughter has had a conversation with me about it, and with her father. She does not expect the family to be broken up or for me to cancel my parents' trip. She just does not want to encounter my father. He is easy to avoid as he is only here once every two or three years, and when she goes to visit her mother she is not obliged to go and see my parents, they would not even know she was there if she didn't tell them.

But I am going to have a further conversation with her after reading all the responses, just to be sure where she stands.

I used to confront my father endlessly about his (right-wing, pretty racist) views, but it never changed anything and just led to some spectacular family scenes. There is absolutely no point now, he knows my views and he is not going to change. I do tell him my opinions, but ignore his. That is a different thing though.

I think your stepdaughter is being very overly sensitive about a silly comment made by an old man -- she should be old enough to brush these comments off? She is being oversensitive? It's all her fault, presumably.

Not the dirty old man who talks about sex to 24year olds?. Who has been like his own granddaughter for 10+ years?

I despair of our DDs. PUT THE BLAME WHERE IT BELONGS, FFS. On the 'Men' who talk and think like this!

jesa - your H is foul.

Obviously if that’s what she wants to do, that’s fine.

I suppose on some level I think it sounds like she is over reacting to words from an old man known within the family to hold unpleasant views.

I agree with poster that calling a single uncomfortable sexual comment sexual harrassment seems over the top to me (although having googled, apparently sexual comments can be considered as such).

Don't rush into any decisions. You haven't scoped the problem properly. You need to ask you DSD two things:

First, were those his exact words? If they were then that would be reasonable grounds to cancel the visit altogether. Or what exactly did he say? And second, did he say or do anything else to/around your DSD that disturbed her?

You can't decide how to proceed until you know the answers.

I am also somewhat that your parents can't visit except when it suits them and that you have to pay for it. They don't sound that keen to see you or your family.

And finally I am wondering what your father might say about - or to - your son with special needs. Does your son deserve that?

I wholeheartedly agree with your SD that it is a vile and inappropriate comment, and she’s totally within her rights to avoid him from now on. I actually think it’s quite a mild response. She could insist that he’s taken to task and made to apologise. It’s a dreadfully objectifying comment to make to her. I’m sorry you are having to see your father in this light.

I’ve had two decades of PIL being able to say intrusive, offensive and highly critical things, and NO ONE ever being allowed to say anything to them in case THEY get upset and take umbrage. It’s so damaging to your self esteem when the family dynamic allows one person to be breathtakingly rude or unpleasant to you, but you can never have right of reply, lest you upset someone, cause a drama, break up the family, etc.

it's too late for some old people, they won't change and making a song and dance over an off the cuff remark is a bit OTT

Who's making a song and dance? He's not even being told that she found his comment offensive! Unless you mean that the lassie should turn up to Christmas with a smile plastered on her face in order to completely protect the bloke from any knowledge that his comments might have been offensive... that seems above and beyond to me.

What is this terrible thing that is going to happen to these creepy old bastards if they once get wind of the fact that young women don't like their shit jokes? Do they just crumple up and die or what? Surely if they are really just inoffensive nice people who've misread the times, they would just roll their eyes and say nothing? Like say, there is currently this thing going on with Sam Smith and how we have to call them "them", because they are non-binary now, and like I would struggle to remember to do this, and I kind of think it's a load of shite really (sorry) so if Sam was at my house for Christmas dinner and I referred to "them" as "him" by accident and then one of my kids came through after dinner and was like "mum you are totally out of order for misgendering Sam" I'd be like right, Sam, I'm awfully sorry, it slipped my mind for a moment, I hope I didn't make you feel uncomfortable" and inside I'd be thinking god this is a load of mince. It wouldn't hurt me to be pulled up, because I wouldn't have judged myself to have done anything particularly offensive.
I think with people - men - who say stuff that is sexual and inappropriate, if they react badly to being pulled up, it's because the comments are inappropriate in their own eyes and they either feel shame at having been noticed or anger at having been caught. Either way, you know, they knew that what they were doing wasn't nice. I think that's the point.

By the way anyone who's getting ready for similar Christmas/family visit dynamics might enjoy Captain Awkward's advice columns, particularly this one.

Your SD as an adult and is being overly sensitive to an admittedly very innapropriate "joke". I think she's got every right to not like your dad very much but she's being selfish and a little bit self absorbed making you choose between her and your parents at xmas over something so very silly! Put them at the opposite ends of the table if she doesn't want to talk to him.

She does not expect the family to be broken up But the family is broken up though, your DSD feels so uncomfortable she will not be spending Christmas with her family this year. But that is fine as long as no body else is inconvenienced, eh. Your DH should spend Christmas with his DD, and leave you to entertain your parents.

If parents are here a month and SD here for 4 days, thats easy? Tell your parents they must entertain themselves for the 4 days in their hotel.

My parents would never be able to afford to visit me if I did not pay. I support them financially in any case. My stepdaughter is not making me choose, she had already decided she was not coming, she was just telling me why.

Xmas dinner (which we do on Xmas eve) is a big thing in our family, as in many families. Having my parents nearby but not with us for that dinner would be a nuclear option which would probably mean they never come again. I am not saying that would not be a solution, but it would be one with huge consequences. It is also not what my stepdaughter wants.

Your Dad was a creep and a dickhead, there’s nothing remotely amusing about his remark and I don’t blame your SD for feeling uncomfortable about it. I would definitely raise it with your Dad whether he’s forgotten or not, he shouldn’t get away with shit like that.