AIBU to need clarification on this?

[Ninkaninus]

Will hold off for now on saying who I am in this scenario.

What would you take this comment by B to mean:

Going out for a drive on a lovely sunny day with a view to deciding what to do en route.

Person A ‘I’d like to go for a walk round a nice little town and then go have a cup of tea in a pub, like a Sunday roast but not.

Person B ‘Once you’ve seen one town you’ve seen them all.

(For context, person B generally does not like going out and doing stuff, doesn’t like people, doesn’t like noise and crowds, doesn’t like overstimulation, is an introvert)

Would you take person B’s comment to mean, ‘I don’t want to walk round a town and then go to the pub’

Or would you take it to mean the person is just making conversation, it’s a neutral comment, they don’t mind walking around a town and then going to the pub.

Yes to sagradafamiliar I am talking about my friend and saying 'if you are like this, you need help - and help would be a good thing anyway'. I was clear about that upthread.

It's one of those threads where I read the OP's posts and think 'oh yes, I recognise you'. But I don't know OP, only what she's posted. So I'm throwing examples out there to see whether OP recognises herself in what my DF does, or whether there is in fact a big gap between them, with just some responses that are similar.

Reading all your posts OP, I think you're much more balanced and reflective than DF.

What I meant about the self-absorbed, self-sabotage thing came from you starting out with a rather confusing post that invited (expected) us to agree that you were right and he was wrong. Then you shifted to this:

But I’ve realised I was completely unreasonable. And I’ve realised that it’s not as straightforward as I had thought - many people would take it to mean what I thought, but many also wouldn’t. And I don’t even think that’s my main concern anymore.

He’s so lovely. It’s not his fault that he’s an introvert, and now that I can see how unreasonable I am I really feel quite bad.

Which is (almost) as extreme but the other way. (Actually there's more nuance there and among your other posts). So, from 'I'm totally right and he's wrong', to 'He's right and I'm totally wrong and I'm a burden upon him'. Both these extremes are unreasonable and both deny the possibility of compromise, improved communication, self-moderation and gradual improvement. It's 'either I'm totally right and you all agree with me, or I'm totally wrong and it's utterly hopeless'. Both extremes are attempts to deny the possibility of change, so justify not having to try. It's a very passive, self-pitying stance, that seeks to avoid personal responsibility.

The answer of course is to explore the middle ground, one small step at a time, even if it's difficult. Recognising that just because you feel something doesn't mean you have to express it - you can control what you do about your feelings - is an obvious first step.

It does sound like you'd benefit from counselling anyway. You've clearly had a lot going on and in quite a different position now, to the one you were in just a few years ago.

Given your age, it might be worth looking into whether hormonal changes associated with the peri-menopause might be a factor.

Your partner does sound like hard work too. He needs to take responsibility for himself and the impact of his choices, actions and poor communication too. Once he'd agreed to go out for the day he needed to make the most of it - not try to drag you down, sabotage the day and avoid you ever suggesting it again, if that's what he was doing. Why did he stop in the town if he didn't want to walk there? Was he dutifully doing what you wanted to do, while moaning about it, then bemused when you started crying about it? Sounds like that but not clear.

Surely you can both occasionally do things because the other one enjoys it, even if it's not your favourite thing? And put on a cheerful face and make the best of it?

If you don't feel up to full on 'talking therapy', how about something like CBT to help alter your responses to things?

Also, why not do things like going out for walks, pub lunches / teas etc with friends, acquaintances or groups, rather than only with DP?

Again, it sounds very black and white, rigid, very extreme, to expect a partner to fulfill all your needs, then to react as if things are hopeless when he doesn't share some of your interests (which is actually completely normal).

Why not find people who do share your interests? Join a walking group - one that offers the kind of walks you enjoy, with plenty of pub and cafe stops. They exist. Likewise find groups or people to do other stuff with. Then do the stuff you and DP can both enjoy, together.

Very few people have the kind of relationship where their DP is their 'everything'. Most of us pursue our own interests and social groups as well as doing stuff with our partners and families.

One thing I think you can do, OP, and in fact you already are doing on this thread which is excellent, is learn strategies for better conversations. You've said you sometimes have these emotional moments, but they are over very quickly, which is great. That means that you should be able to continue the conversations without them spiralling into the big arguments.

For example, when your OH had said 'Once you’ve seen one town you’ve seen them all.' you could have asked 'Does that mean you would rather go somewhere else? We could if you'd prefer that.' Then that gives him a chance to be more explicit and you both get to have input in what you choose to do next.

Have you ever looked into BPD or EUPD? That’s what I have and you sound a lot like me before diagnosis/therapy.

Thank you all for further comments. I will read them more carefully tomorrow and come back if I can.

I quite often talk total crap because I make either make random connections in my head or I run bits of a conversation in my head and skip ahead without realising that some of it was internal monologue not a conversation. Ironically this has improved since I've had a child who comes out with baffling randomness.

What you said seems academic. What you meant (it seems to me) was "I want to spend this gorgeous afternoon with you, outside." I would imagine it's more upsetting when someone doesn't notice that you've made an effort to dress up for spending time with them.

Is it really that you didn't get to do your thing, or more that you feel rejected because you made an effort and you've been fobbed off? That would probably make me feel a bit teary.

Yep, sure, maybe communicating more clearly would help, but I can only imagine how wearing it is when one partner is making the effort to look nice and plan a lovely afternoon, and gets brushed off.

I think the only way to test this is to try making a plan in the morning and spell out what you'd both like to do, then negotiate. If your ideas of a great weekend are consistently polar opposites, then you might have to try doing some things with friends rather than your partner.

Thanks all.

Now that I have some more distance and am not as upset as I was yesterday, I’m going to try to clarify a few things about the original question I posted and the scenario that led to it. I also feel the need to add some wider context so I apologise in advance as I will probably ramble a bit.

I had already said to him earlier in the day, I would really like to go out and find a little town, walk around and maybe have a cup of tea at a pub (the ‘like a Sunday roast, but not’ that I mentioned yesterday would have made sense to him, he knew what I meant. We have been out once this year to a pub for a Sunday roast and I was relating it to that. I knew he wouldn’t want a meal at the pub that day because it was too hot). At that point I would have expected him to tell me if he didn’t want to do that, in which case we would have discussed it and made alternative plans. 9 out of 10 times that is what happens. We’re actually very good at negotiating minor disagreements and differences in option. But on the day he didn’t say anything, we agreed to go for a drive and decide specifics on the way (which is usually how we do it - we’ll decide on a general plan first but don’t know exactly where we’ll go until we are driving). He then let me happily get dressed in an outfit that was clearly not suited for one of our usual days out, and we had the conversation about my shoes which again indicated that he was alright with my idea, and I admit I did do my thing of starting to envisage our day and making a happy picture of it in my head. Which is why I reacted badly later.

It’s not as if I’m trying to drag him around market towns and plant nurseries and going for tea and scones weekly, either, btw. I’m not a character in a novel. I’m actually much more cosmopolitan than that - if things had worked out differently my happy place would be back at home in Copenhagen, living quite a different life to the one I live here. I like museums, galleries, theatres, travel, city breaks, etc. None of which we can do together. Well we did go to London once which I really enjoyed. I might have to get used to going on my own, but the tube is quite scary to me - I’m really not good with directions, I get turned around very easily and find it really hard to make sense of how it works.

But on this day, I really wanted to wear a nice summer dress probably for the last time this year, and go out to somewhere other than a wood or walk or any number of the other things we usually do because they’re better suited to him. And I don’t mind doing those, I enjoy them too. I’m happy to spend time in nature and away from people, it’s just that naturally I like to be busy, to have lots to see and do and also try new and different things. But I’m not just suffering through it and meekly going along with whatever he prefers, I genuinely am quite happy doing those things, although I probably have gone overboard a bit in neglecting my own needs and wants. And I know I overcompensate in trying to make sure he’s happy because I get very stressed when he’s stressed.

That sets the scene a little.

So in the car we then start to discuss specifics and this is where the scenario took place.

When he said ‘once you’ve seen one town, you’ve seen them all’ what I heard was ‘I don’t want to do that, I might do it but you will have to listen to my usual commentary in this same vein’ - I think lots of people on this thread know what I mean. It’s impossible to enjoy something when you have somebody doing that all the way through. So I got upset. And momentarily tearful. It wasn’t crying, I didn’t make a big deal, but I was very disappointed and it definitely showed. I’m not going to apologise for that, and I still don’t think I was unreasonable to be upset, nor to express that emotion.

He got irritated when I said I didn’t want to do it anymore which is what started the actual argument. I get angry when he gets angry with me, and it escalates from there. What prompted me to ask the question was the fact that he vehemently maintains that comments of that sort are not negative and I’m totally abnormal to read them that way, that if he’s doing something with me then I should take that as evidence that he’s happy to do it, otherwise he wouldn’t be doing it. He gets cross with me for finding it tiresome and negative and for taking the position that if he’s doing that then he’s not enjoying it and I’d rather do something else than have to suffer through a joyless outing that’s ruined by constant nitpicking. He swears up and down that he’s just making conversation, that he’s not going to self-censor (he has reason to be adamant on this so I do understand where he’s coming from), why should he go around pretending that everything is perfect. Whereas I am very much of the mindset that I don’t really mind if everything’s not perfect, and I’m not trying to pretend it is, either. But I do want to actually enjoy things, to be able to sit and relax and take in the good bits, and I cannot do that when he is there doing what I perceive as moaning and whingeing.

There is form for it in his family, mind, so I know where he gets it from and it obviously seems perfectly normal to him. It’s a bit like going out to dinner with someone who doesn’t want a starter, balks at the price of olives and bread when you can buy ten times that amount at Aldi for the same money, just wants water, orders a fish main, then complains about the size of the fillet for that price, turns down pudding and afterwards whinges about still being hungry and why did we even bother (there are no money issues btw). I just think to myself, why are you even here?? You know how restaurants work, obviously it’s going to more expensive than cooking yourself at home. You don’t go out to eat to save money, you go out to enjoy yourself and see people and to maybe try something new and different.

Anyway I digress.

I was very upset yesterday because for the first time I thought I’m not sure I actually want to do this for the rest of my life. If we’re speaking such completely different languages then really, honestly what hope is there long term. Then on top of that was questioning whether or not it actually is me and perhaps everyone does see it his way. I’m glad that at least that’s not the case. The OTT reaction of ‘I don’t want to inflict myself on him’ comes from the idea that I have to be different. I can’t be different, just like he can’t. I don’t think I should have to maintain a constant emotionless existence just so he can feel more comfortable, firstly, but also I don’t believe that people can change on such a fundamental level. You can moderate yourself a little but you can’t be different. So the idea of learning to moderate behaviour and one’s reactions to a situation is much easier to relate to and that has been really helpful.

I also genuinely hadn’t really considered that whether or not I mean to be difficult I probably am simply by virtue of being so different in character to him. And people’s reaction to my genuinely panicky feelings were insightful too. It obviously doesn’t feel like dramatics to me, but I can see how it would look to other people. So that made me sad too.

The ASD thing, well it’s neither here nor there, really. I’m not sure a diagnosis would make any practical difference but I am definitely going to look into putting some strategies into place. I’m sure that will help me to feel less chaotic and overwhelmed which would really be nice.

I’m quite sure it’s not BPD. I don’t display any characteristics other than the inability to regulate my emotions.

I wonder if some of it is due to PTSD which may have been triggered by the period of severe stress I suffered. Or perhaps it was the other way around and PTSD contributed to that horrific stress. As I said, I have cause for that so it may well be the case.

Lastly I want to explain a little about why I’m taking the line here that I was being unreasonable. That’s because I know I am to blame for the escalation. I don’t think I was unreasonable in the beginning and not necessarily mid way but at the end of the argument it was definitely me who was more out of order, and the pattern is always the same. I react with a level of anger that is disproportionate. I know what the cause of that is. It’s a valid reaction to the underlying cause, but it’s not a valid reaction here, with someone I love and respect, who is by and large a good, decent person and whose actions don’t actually warrant such a vehement reaction.

I get emotional. He gets annoyed which gets my back up straightaway. He often calls it ‘flying off the handle’ which it patently is not. He’s obviously not comfortable with it, probably because it’s always completely unexpected to him. He’s always genuinely baffled and can’t understand what I’m upset about, which makes sense now that I realise he’s not actually saying what I think he’s saying (or doesn’t perceive it that way).

I absolutely will not be told what I can and cannot feel. I absolutely won’t be dictated to about who I am and who I should be. I am extremely defensive of a) my feelings being dismissed, b) not being heard, c) my voice being silenced and d) being powerless. So I am overly combative which again, is valid in terms of the root cause, but is a disproportionate reaction in scenarios like this.

I also go from mildly irritated to extremely angry very quickly if someone becomes angry with me first. As far as I’m concerned, when I’m in that space I have no choice but to fight, there is nothing else. Again, my feeling is overwhelming, my whole existence is threatened and I’m fighting for survival. I absolutely will not back down, I absolutely will not make any concessions and I will always come back ten times stronger. Why shouldn’t I fight my corner if I’m put in that position.

That may sound ridiculous but it’s absolutely how intense it feels and it’s very very hard for me to cope with. Again, it’s a valid response to the root cause, but it’s disproportionate in this situation. And when I have had time to calm down I know that I have reacted in a manner that is absolutely not warranted. I’m always apologetic, I’m always accepting of the fact that it was too much, too strong, too combative. Then I feel silly and stupid and resolve to do things differently next time.

I’ve made it sound like we argue a lot. We don’t. But it has definitely become more frequent. I don’t like it and it makes me sad. I feel more panicky in general too and it is getting harder to go about my daily life without getting stressed.

Person B sounds incredibly tiresome .
As someone said earlier ..a fun sponge . I do not think you were unreasonable . I think you have been slapped about the face with a damp fun sponge for almost the last time .

Well he does sound an utter joysucker.

You make an effort to do things he likes, in good spirit, ensuring he enjoys the experience. He does not reciprocate.

In order to achieve that, he would need to focus on you, what is required for you to enjoy something, and do that, so go out with an open mind and make an effort to see the best in the situation. Not put himself first ALL the time. Does he really believe that his 'need' to chunter on negatively about everything, is more important than you getting your fair share of fun days out?

If so and if he really is incapable of escaping this deeply inculcated familial habit, you do need to find other people to have fun with.

I find the 'self-censorship' angle bizarre. We all self-censor all the time. We all have internal monologues running, which we all know better than to speak out loud! For our own as well as other people's sakes. What makes him such a special oracle that he must be free to speak his inner voice aloud at all times? Does he do it at work?

There's a contradiction there, isn't there. Negativity is an unconsious habit, a way of communicating he learned from his family, not something he thinks about or is even aware he's doing. Yet, at the same time, his freedom to speak his mind, at all times, is of paramount importance. This is a conscious, deliberate desire to share his thoughts and ideas. The negative thoughts are his dearest, most carefully crafted, consciously-fomed ideas. Which is it? Are they his own independent ideas? Or just a learned habit of speech?

I'm not sure a person who can't handle their OH being emotional in any way without getting angry is a great partner, tbh.

What is he like when something happens that truly makes you emotional? A bad thing that makes you cry? Does he just walk off and only come back 'when you're feeling better'? Because that is absolutely no fun at all in a relationship (been there, left him).

No, he’s very good in every other situation. He’s very empathetic as long as he understands (which is what empathy is tbf), caring, gentle, always thoughtful and considerate of me, so I think the problem is that in cases like this we really are speaking completely different languages and we simply don’t have any common ground at all. I might as well be speaking Danish to him. He really is a decent man and our relationship is great overall. This is literally the only sticking point. I think it’s the unexpected shift in mood that sets him off, or maybe there is something in the way I behave in that moment that sets off a defensive reaction for whatever reason. I know that he cannot cope with people who he perceives as being unbalanced or difficult to read. He has valid reasons for feeling threatened by certain situations too, so if I’m going to expect understanding for my unreasonable reactions and behaviours then I have to be willing to make that allowance for him too.

Well you put up with it.

But I still don't understand why you don't plan your day-trips properly before going out. It's just asking for trouble!

You are both, clearly, people who need to know what the plan is, so you can acclimatise your thoughts towards it, so as to enable you to embrace what unfolds.

From what you've said, when things don't unfold 'right', he plummets into gloom, you spiral into emotional frustration and you both get completely 'stuck'. Then you clash, from these equally intransigent positions.

Why do that to yourselves? Why not make a plan?

(I must admit that my own preferences are intruding here too. The very idea of driving aimlessly around, looking for somewhere suitable to go, makes me feel uncomfortable. It sounds like the perfect way to waste more time than you need to driving, set yourselves up for squabbles in the car about whether the place you just passed would have been better than the one you're now heading towards, turning around or changing route, arriving later than you might have done, when it might now be hard to find parking, then discovering that whatever you were most interested in isn't open that day, or just having less time to enjoy the place because you didn't drive straight there at a sensible time. Ugh!)

I think what he means is self-censorship in terms of opinions/feelings/etc, with someone you love. Of course he doesn’t mean it in terms of never holding back or being permanently horrible just because that’s how you feel. But just that he shouldn’t feel forced to mirror someone else’s experience or mood or opinion. Which is fair enough. A bit like I maintain that I’m entitled to react in an outwardly emotional way when something upsets me.

I think he thinks I expect him to perform some kind of charade of happiness and perfection and ‘isn’t it all so marvellous!’ which would be inauthentic. But I maintain, and have tried to explain to him, that I’m not asking him to perform, but he doesn’t have to say anything either.

I think it’s a mix of learned behaviour from his upbringing and then also being quite rigid in his thinking, and a black and white approach to life. In that way we’re very similar

I think our styles in terms of how to approach that type of day out is just completely different. In that way we’re just completely incompatible and I’m definitely going to have to take myself out on day trips instead. It’s time for me to explore the world again on my own.

.

The other thing is that you're trying to understand your behaviour and thinking about moderating it to make things easier for him. It doesn't sound like he's doing that for you.

He could easily stop winding you up by making negative comments that he knows will send you into an emotional spiral. He's deliberately poking the bear.

It's interesting that the outcome of that is that you get too upset (not that there wasn't any justified cause for upset - just that you overdo it), then seek to modify your behaviour in ways that will benefit him - rather than calmly address your just cause with him.

Works out quite well for him, doesn't it?

Usually our plans for days like this are for things that he is comfortable with and I also enjoy, so we just go with the flow and I’m happy to accommodate. We do chop and change things quite regularly so it’s not that he or I can’t cope with uncertainty or that once we’ve decided to do x it has to be that way. Other times we do make concrete plans like let’s go to x beach or x beauty spot, or let’s have a picnic or whatever.

The problem was specifically to do with my expectation of something that I wanted to do, and because it was a specific picture in my mind of something ‘couply’ to do together, something that I would have really enjoyed, something I had dressed up a little for and my resultant disappointment when he made his dismissive and quite rude comment, and then expected me to still be enthusiastic about the prospect of doing it. At that stage I was not going to agree to doing that on the day with him whether or not he was willing to do so, he’d already ruined it for me. Which he perceives as being needlessly stubborn and stroppy.

You definitely need some new 'going out' friends.

Yes I agree that it works out quite well for him.

I don’t mind though as there are other things in our relationship that work out quite well for me. It’s all part of the give and take for me. His good points massively outweigh this one sticking point.

He has moderated himself quite markedly in other ways to accommodate my feelings and my character so again he’s not actually as bad as it sounds here. I’m discussing his behaviour and position is relation to one quite small aspect of our overall life together.

There is also a backstory that means I am particularly sensitive to perceived slights to do with ‘couply’ things but it would just take too long to explain here.

Ultimately I really only have two options:

Option A, accept that I am not going to be able to do things like that with him, ever, and find other ways of getting that need met. Modify my expectations so that I can better deal with reality.

Option B, consider this as too important an issue to gloss over. Consider our differences in terms of days out as too big an incompatibility. Leave the relationship.

Separate to that is learning to modify my behaviours in terms of emotional regulation, anger and reactivity. I would want to do that anyway, as I am finding life too stressful in general.

OP - do you ever just do what you want without consulting him?

For example, my OH has been to countless gigs of bands that I wanted to see, that he has never heard of and can't stand.

I don't ask I just buy the tickets, but if he really didn't want to go, I'd either go alone or get another friend to come. I am happy going to gigs alone, I've known musicians my whole life and am more than happy at gigs on my own.

If he hates it, he goes off to another area, or waits at the back and I find him at the end. I have accompanied him to Jazz and Opera that I have hated, it goes both ways.

If you are in a relationship where you are not allowed the freedom to explore what you want, then as I said earlier, this relationship is not good for your mental health and well being. You cannot just close off what you want to do and experience, just to stop upsetting someone who is supposed to be your best friend and ally.

No I have the freedom to do so and he has no problem with me going out or doing things on my own or with other people. I’m a very good driver and actually really like to drive but one of the ways my anxiety manifests itself is I find driving to new places really stressful. I avoid it as much as possible because the idea that I might cause an accident due to my high stress level is just too scary. I would always choose to go somewhere with him for that reason, as he doesn’t mind driving at all.

So I am part of the problem too.

I suppose I wouldn’t necessarily have to drive. I could take the train. I might plan a day out for myself once a month to start with.

I agree that I need to do more things with friends.

Sadly my really close friends are far away, back home. My family also aren’t in the U.K.

I had great friends at my former job but I’ve moved quite far away now and it’s not feasible to see them often although they do always invite me when they meet up which I really appreciate. My colleagues at the job I’ve just left were also lovely and good work friends but not close enough yet that I would really know how to navigate meeting up and going out. So I’m sort of stuck for friends until I find another job and get to know new people.

I do have two grown-up daughters who I might be able to go out with. I worry that they’re just on the side of too young to appreciate going out with mum, and I wouldn’t want to bore them. But actually, thinking about it, one of them at least is very like me and would probably enjoy it. And my other one who is less like me might still enjoy something similar. She works hard so time off is spent re charging at home, but I’m sure we could go out to dinner here and there.

(We do anyway but I’m just trying to internalise the idea that maybe these things don’t have to be couply things and I could still dress up a bit and feel like it’s a bit of an occasion. This is what I mean about having a specific idea in my head. It often doesn’t occur to me that things could be slightly different)

I feel like I talk too much.

I’m always too much, with everything.

Thank you by the way, to everyone who offered flowers and nice words, and to everyone has invested time in talking this through with me. Even if I haven’t specifically replied to your comments, they have all been helpful.

I am going to get some work done now.

(That last comment was just how I feel right now - it’s very hard for me to talk in depth about myself and what I consider deficiencies in my character or personality, it makes me feel really vulnerable.)

I think I’ll take a good long walk today.

Person b has not answered the question and needs to communicate better.