Sam Smith coming out as non-binary - help me understand!

[namechangeblah2019]

Name changed for this in case it gets messy.

I don't know if you've seen in the news but the singer Sam Smith came out as non-binary recently and has now asked that people use they/them pronouns with regard to them.

Absolutely not a problem with using those pronouns - I'm not a fan of theirs particularly so it's unlikely that they'll be cropping up that much in conversation anyway!

But - and I promise I am not being obtuse here, I am just old and slow but I am willing to learn - what exactly is non-binary? I just can't wrap my head around it. Surely the existence of non-binariness as a concept positions it as an alternative to an existing binary (i.e. men being macho and loving beer, women being all pink and girly and love wine) which I thought we all got over (or are meant to be getting over - sadly some people are very slow on the uptake!) anyway?

If I put on a pair of trousers or drink a pint or watch football I don't feel any less like a woman. I still feel like namechangeblah2019. How can you both refute the existence of a gender binary but also claim to be outside of it?

Please be kind to me - as I say I'm not implying they are wrong at all and if that is how they feel most comfortable being referred to then good on them and we should all respect that! I just want to learn as I currently feel like a right old fogey

It's attention seeking and no doubt he has a new album coming out soon.

I don't care whether Sams Smiths are (I'm giving them plural verbs and nouns too) non-binaries. I don't feel male or female which, I believe makes me gender free. Please respect that. However I take issue with Sams telling me how to describe them. I will choose to use whatever words I deem appropriate to describe Sams. That is the cornerstone of free speech and free speech is a right that I think needs to be protected. Because we need free speech if we are to be able to think freely. All freedom hinges on free speech.

Wouldn’t the pronoun “it” be better?! At least that makes sense.

I was going to say the exact same thing. They and them are plural. It is much better.

My 5 year old has a better understanding of gender than Sam Smith. We still call him “him” even though he dresses like Elsa and plays with cars AT THE SAME TIME! Shock!

It must be incredibly draining to worry about your gender constantly instead of just enjoying life and thinking “fuck it, I’ll like what I like and just get on with it”

No one gives a damn what Sam smith likes! Literally nobody! Nobody gives a damn if he’s into boys or girls!

What else defines gender?!

Let me tell you... it’s an internal thing defined by our genetics... something you can’t change... putting on a pair of trousers and becoming a mechanic and being “into women” won’t make me have the brain and testosterone levels of a man.

I was going to say the exact same thing. They and them are plural. It is much better.

This is ridiculous. I expect you have used 'they' or 'them' yourself to refer to an individual in the past when you don't know their gender. I myself did this week when my husband asked me if the new dentist in our practice was nice and I said 'I don't know, they're running late so I haven't met them yet'.

You might also at some point in your life have said thinks like 'Someone has left their umbrella', or 'Megan and Harry's baby is due soon - what will their title be?'.

'It' is dehumanising and should never be used.

'They' can be used as both a singular and plural noun, and it's been in use for centuries. When I translate, I use 'they' as the default gender neutral pronoun when referring to people, rather than 'he'. The 'he' as default annoys the hell out of me.

PRONOUN even. derrr.

I guess people have felt this way for decades and centuries
And now we have recently invented a name or a term for it ?

I have no issue with it . I don’t think it harms
Me , my family of Society . It’s someone putting a name to something they presumable struggle to understand

Also, you clearly do give a damn about Sam Smith's gender/sexuality, since there's a whole bloody thread on it.

"I guess people have felt this way for decades and centuries
And now we have recently invented a name or a term for it ?"

So what you're saying is...it's normal for people to feel like narrow gender definitions don't actually suit them?

Yes. I'd say most of us would firmly agree with that.

I think we’ll look back and think how unbelievable it was that gender was given such importance that it caused the complete oppression of half the world

I do hope so . We have many pressing global issues and this , isn’t one of them

I still operate for a business where white men are the comfortable currency and it’s depressing as fuck . If the millenials can shake it up good bloody luck to them

Hang on... I don’t believe you can separate sex and gender though.

So I was born female, xx, certain levels of hormones, and that makes my brain a certain way and gives me certain traits.... it’s the reason I go all gushy when a newborn is passed around, it’s the reason I get emotional at Bridget Jones diary! It’s the reason I go crazy before a period. I didn’t learn those traits....

My husband was born male and has different genes. It’s the reason why he has loads of testosterone and his brain functions a certain way. He enjoys playing rugby and is covered in hair. He is not bothered when a newborn is in the room and certainly doesn’t cry! It’s the reason that despite years of teaching, he still can’t fold a towel correctly.

'It' might be dehumanising for you Glasshouse however now that certain words in the language are being foisted upon us, 'it' is not dehumanising for me. I demand that you forevermore refer to me as 'it'. And I will be very offended if you don't. All I ask is for some respect. I am gender free and I hope you won't deny my right to exist @glasshouse? I personally cannot work with 'them' because it creates cognitive dissonance within me

...gender was given such importance that it caused the complete oppression of half the world
Women aren't oppressed because of their gender, they are oppressed because of their sex...gender stereotypes are part of that oppression.

So to SS and everyone else throwing gender up in the air and starting steps that may lead to its removal, fucking go for it.
All of this malarkey is doing the very opposite of removing gender...it is hardening the rules of gender stereotyping, ie what makes a woman/man = the way you feel and the things you do (made up bullcrap)....rather than what makes a man/woman is your chromosomes and sexual organs (fact)

Live

I have never struggled with being defined as female . I have many other struggles don’t we all ! But being female as identity has never been there .

What makes me both laugh and cry is that for all their patriarchal power I don’t think men are any ‘happier’

Men kill themselves , gays kill themselves , and we know of transgender mental health issues

So no one is fucking happy in this human condition . I dont think the male power model is really working out for anyone really

So I watch with interest .

So I was born female, xx, certain levels of hormones, and that makes my brain a certain way and gives me certain traits.... it’s the reason I go all gushy when a newborn is passed around, it’s the reason I get emotional at Bridget Jones diary! It’s the reason I go crazy before a period. I didn’t learn those traits....

My husband was born male and has different genes. It’s the reason why he has loads of testosterone and his brain functions a certain way. He enjoys playing rugby and is covered in hair. He is not bothered when a newborn is in the room and certainly doesn’t cry! It’s the reason that despite years of teaching, he still can’t fold a towel correctly.

Sorry, but I can’t believe people still believe these bollocks. Do you actually believe your dh is physically incapable of folding a towel because he has a penis? Don’t you think it’s far more likely that social conditioning has made you gush over a new baby? What about women like me who don’t get emotional at Bridget Jones and perhaps struggle with towel folding? Would that mean I’m not actually a woman and ought to self ID as a man.....I even like rugby!

And I think it totally harms me and harms society. It reinforces gender stereotypes and surely nobody should be happy with that?

"So I was born female, xx, certain levels of hormones, and that makes my brain a certain way and gives me certain traits.... it’s the reason I go all gushy when a newborn is passed around, it’s the reason I get emotional at Bridget Jones diary! It’s the reason I go crazy before a period. I didn’t learn those traits...."

Are you serious right now?

You did learn at least some of those traits.

I couldn't give a shit about a newborn baby or Bridget Jones. My husband, despite his penis, loves babies though I'm not sure he nor I can fold a towel since I'm not actually sure how one does that.

Are you honestly suggesting that folding towels and enjoying Bridget Jones are somehow bound up in XX chromosomes? Because if so, feminism is -> that way.

I think most people are like me and my husband though! I think we cannot deny that genetics and hormones influence our brains, thoughts and our behaviours.

So to SS and everyone else throwing gender up in the air and starting steps that may lead to its removal, fucking go for it. I’m right behind you

I agree gender is nonsense but the problem is SS isn't throwing gender up in the air, he's reinforcing it. He's positioning himself as non-binary as opposed to ... binary men, does he those who identify as male are traditional 'blokes'? And so by not conforming to that stupid stereotype, he must not be male? He just doesn't conform to a social construct, which is ace and ideally nobody would feel they had to. But reinforcing the notion that there people who act in a certain way because they are male helps nobody.

"Do you actually believe your dh is physically incapable of folding a towel because he has a penis?"

You need a vagina to fold a towel, silly. How else are you supposed to get the creases out?

@JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown, I think you phrased it perfectly I dont hold any bad feelings towards SS who comes across as nice if a bit of a twit, but if 'non-binary' is real, then so are sexual stereotypes, and I that's not progress. Its deeply regressive and sexist. This is what I find worrying, and what I’ve been trying to articulate.

Casual reinforcement of sexual stereotyping is everywhere; even the brief discussion of girls with long or short hair, why? Why do people say “I love pink and dresses but I love football too”? It’s so weird because why do you even feel the need to say it? You are reinforcing bullshit stereotypes by even mentioning it.

@EmpressLesbianInChair I agree with what you said about Eddie Izzard too. Talk about reverse engineering a situation 🙄.

It' might be dehumanising for you Glasshouse however now that certain words in the language are being foisted upon us, 'it' is not dehumanising for me. I demand that you forevermore refer to me as 'it'. And I will be very offended if you don't. All I ask is for some respect. I am gender free and I hope you won't deny my right to exist @glasshouse? I personally cannot work with 'them' because it creates cognitive dissonance within me

Fair enough. I'll call you by whatever pronouns you like, and I'll assume you will extend the same courtesy to others. You're welcome to be 'it' if that suits you, but you're not welcome to insist upon another person changing their pronouns for your benefit.