Sam Smith coming out as non-binary - help me understand!

[namechangeblah2019]

Name changed for this in case it gets messy.

I don't know if you've seen in the news but the singer Sam Smith came out as non-binary recently and has now asked that people use they/them pronouns with regard to them.

Absolutely not a problem with using those pronouns - I'm not a fan of theirs particularly so it's unlikely that they'll be cropping up that much in conversation anyway!

But - and I promise I am not being obtuse here, I am just old and slow but I am willing to learn - what exactly is non-binary? I just can't wrap my head around it. Surely the existence of non-binariness as a concept positions it as an alternative to an existing binary (i.e. men being macho and loving beer, women being all pink and girly and love wine) which I thought we all got over (or are meant to be getting over - sadly some people are very slow on the uptake!) anyway?

If I put on a pair of trousers or drink a pint or watch football I don't feel any less like a woman. I still feel like namechangeblah2019. How can you both refute the existence of a gender binary but also claim to be outside of it?

Please be kind to me - as I say I'm not implying they are wrong at all and if that is how they feel most comfortable being referred to then good on them and we should all respect that! I just want to learn as I currently feel like a right old fogey

I wonder why the world gets terribly excited when a man suddenly decides he is NB but no one gets excited when I don't pluck my chin hairs.

No one has ever called me brave or special or told me I'm smashing the binary by leaving those spiky bastards to run rampant.

Won't someone tell me how special I am?

You need a vagina to fold a towel, silly. How else are you supposed to get the creases out?

Oh, so that’s where I’m going wrong. Didn’t realise I was supposed to iron the creases out with my vagina!

Don’t you think it’s far more likely that social conditioning has made you gush over a new baby?

Don’t agree . I truly believe that female animals have been made to like babies . It’s not social Conditioning . I see one (newborn) and crave to look at them , hold them . That’s nature over nurture

Social Conditioning is huge and includes me dressing how I dress , dying my hair and more of my behaviours than I dare contemplate !

Trimummy....I have no gushiness when a new born gets passed round, bloody hate Bridget Jones Diary, and when I am a stroppy arse before my period it is due to hormones. It doesn't make me any less of a woman that I like comic books, sci fi and action films and have shaved hair. Dh being a man isn't defined by his towel folding ability but the fact he has a dick and XY chromosomes.

Another one here who doesn't know what it feels like to be a woman or man, just what it feels like to be me, a person. How does Sam Smith or anyone who declares themselves non-binary presume to know what anyone else feels, male or female? I feel I'd be exactly the same person, whatever body I inhabited. I'm perfectly happy being a woman, but I think I'd be equally happy being a man. I don't know for sure as I don't presume to know how men think, any more than I presume to know how any other woman feels.

I agree with previous posters who said that people declaring themselves non-binary is simply reinforcing gender stereotypes - that girls /women have to be all pink and fluffy and sparkly and into make up and high heels and boys/men have to be all tough and macho and into rugby and drinking beer. What patronising, sexist bullshit.

I think it reeks of a publicity stunt. I'd forgotten all about him them until now. Why now? And why the need to announce it?

I don't think they will keep it up for life.

"Don’t agree . I truly believe that female animals have been made to like babies . It’s not social Conditioning . I see one (newborn) and crave to look at them , hold them . That’s nature over nurture"

Shit, when I look at a baby, I feel fundamentally bored.

Suppose I must be a man.

Off to the cock-making shop for me, since I am not just a boring old woman like all you lot.

So I was born female, xx, certain levels of hormones, and that makes my brain a certain way and gives me certain traits.... it’s the reason I go all gushy when a newborn is passed around, it’s the reason I get emotional at Bridget Jones diary! It’s the reason I go crazy before a period. I didn’t learn those traits....

My husband was born male and has different genes. It’s the reason why he has loads of testosterone and his brain functions a certain way. He enjoys playing rugby and is covered in hair. He is not bothered when a newborn is in the room and certainly doesn’t cry! It’s the reason that despite years of teaching, he still can’t fold a towel correctly.

My husband is known as the one who cries at tv and films in this house. And he doesn't like rugby. He's also fairly hairless.

He's still a bloke though. Obviously.

Because our personality is not based on our sex. It can be influenced by the expectations (gender) put on us by society because of our sex. Parents give girls and boys different toys, we have phrases like 'boys will be boys' but we don't let girls shove each other around like I see boys doing.

As an aside, I take issue with the idea that women are more emotional. I think if we count anger as an emotion (with it being one and all that) then men are at least just as emotional as women.

We need to break gender stereotypes, not reinforce them.

@Trimummy3 what you are doing is pure gender stereotyping though. Which is what most people on this thread are saying is stupid. It has nothing to do with biological sex. 🤦‍♀️

Most people are not like you and your husband. Hopefully most people have more critical thinking skills.

Go look it up there are many many studies.

So for example men and women experience compassion a different way. They did scans of brains whilst showing study participants sad pictures and men and women show differences in brain activity. So.. I’m not saying that men or women are more compassionate just that our brains react differently this meaning we are not the same when it comes to this. And that is because of our genes. Something g we cannot change or control.

Sam smith went wrong when he tried to get others to change their behaviour to suit him. That is not okay.

SS is also using his status as a man, and a famous one, to enforce his choice of pronoun on others. Which, like most other trans activism, only reinforces sex roles and the idea that everyone else should do whatever will make men happy.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks that embracing gender stereotypes really really hard will somehow make them vanish in the long term. It's a bit Underpants Gnomes - there's clearly a missing step, but any time anyone asks about it we just get told off for being mean.

""Don’t agree . I truly believe that female animals have been made to like babies . It’s not social Conditioning . I see one (newborn) and crave to look at them , hold them . That’s nature over nurture""

For another thing, this is absolutely culturally bound. In my husband's culture (he's Asian), it is totally normal for people of both sexes to go crazy over babies. It's normal for men to want to hold them, to call them cute, to hold their child's hand even as an adult (my husband's dad will hold his hand and tell him he loves him), to follow instagram accounts of cute babies and so on.

Just because in the UK we've made it so only women get excited over babies does not make it the same everywhere in the world.

I think puppies are really cute.

Adult dogs on the other hand...

I wouldn't be surprised if this thread gets removed at some point.

Also why am I anymore wrong to embrace my gender stereotype. I enjoy being a womanly woman and ultra feminine. Why is that anymore wrong that Sam smith?!

Would "Cock" be a useful alternative pronoun?

I'm from Wigan, growing up everyone was called "Cock".
Except little children, they were "Cockers".

[Sits at mrstops feet in awe at earlier post, and if you have a blog please pm me so I can follow you!]

Ok, maybe the gushing over a baby was a poor example. I can perhaps accept that could be partly biology. But crying over Bridget Jones? That has to be social conditioning.

As kids it’s more acceptable for a girl to cry (or was when I was growing up in the 70s/80s) and boys were told “don’t be a sissy” if they showed any signs of crying.

I’d like to think things aren’t quite that bad now but I do think these stereotypes still exist. And then as a society we end up with adult men who dont show their emotions, don’t talk about feelings and a high male suicide rate. So I hate it when people say that this doesn’t affect society because it has major implications.

I see one (newborn) and crave to look at them , hold them . That’s nature over nurture

I don't, and I am 100% vagina and uterus enabled.

"They did scans of brains whilst showing study participants sad pictures and men and women show differences in brain activity. So.. I’m not saying that men or women are more compassionate just that our brains react differently this meaning we are not the same when it comes to this. And that is because of our genes."

But your brain is also active when you see things that you have been socially conditioned to like or not like. I mean, your brain is not just about nature.

If you are terrified of dogs because a dog bit you once, when shown a picture of a dog, your brain will show signs of fear. My brain will not, because I like dogs.

That doesn't have anything to do with nature.

@Trimummy3 I have never been able to finish the film the fox and the hound as I cry so much it has to be turned off. When my friends baby daughter learns to do new things I get very emotional, I also often cry when my son has mastered something new.

When the rugby team I used to play for won a big match I would cry all the way to tje changing room, if they lost a big match I would do the same.

Sod towels, I can fold fitted sheets.

I have one X chromosome, I also have a penis. I’m also aware that being male doesn’t give me certain emotional/personality traits, I’m also aware it doesn’t stop me learning new skills.

"Also why am I anymore wrong to embrace my gender stereotype. I enjoy being a womanly woman and ultra feminine. Why is that anymore wrong that Sam smith?!"

No one said you are wrong to do that.

They said you're wrong to say that you are that way because you are a woman and not because you are you/have been socially conditioned to be that way.

Lots of great points on this thread. Just wanted to add something about using someone's chosen pronouns. It is often said that it's easy to do, it's just courtesy. I strongly believe as a linguist that this is NOT true. It acts takes quite a bit of cognitive effort to remember and use pronouns that are different to the norm. This is even harder when we are told that "misgendering" is a crime. I teach young adults and have come across this problem in class. If I had more than one request for different pronouns I would really struggle! I have also unintentionally used the wrong pronouns talking about a transitioning student who started the course wanting to be referred to as male and finished as female. Luckily nothing happened but I have heard of colleagues being disciplined for similar.

Ok I indentify as “ultra feminine” and demand that you use the pronoun “sssshhhheeeee” from now on. Where will the madness end...

They did scans of brains whilst showing study participants sad pictures and men and women show differences in brain activity.

But maybe that’s because of social conditioning? Men have been taught not to respond in a certain way so they don’t. And if they’re not responding then of course the scan won’t show brain activity in that area. Doesn’t mean it’s because of biology.