Sam Smith coming out as non-binary - help me understand!

[namechangeblah2019]

Name changed for this in case it gets messy.

I don't know if you've seen in the news but the singer Sam Smith came out as non-binary recently and has now asked that people use they/them pronouns with regard to them.

Absolutely not a problem with using those pronouns - I'm not a fan of theirs particularly so it's unlikely that they'll be cropping up that much in conversation anyway!

But - and I promise I am not being obtuse here, I am just old and slow but I am willing to learn - what exactly is non-binary? I just can't wrap my head around it. Surely the existence of non-binariness as a concept positions it as an alternative to an existing binary (i.e. men being macho and loving beer, women being all pink and girly and love wine) which I thought we all got over (or are meant to be getting over - sadly some people are very slow on the uptake!) anyway?

If I put on a pair of trousers or drink a pint or watch football I don't feel any less like a woman. I still feel like namechangeblah2019. How can you both refute the existence of a gender binary but also claim to be outside of it?

Please be kind to me - as I say I'm not implying they are wrong at all and if that is how they feel most comfortable being referred to then good on them and we should all respect that! I just want to learn as I currently feel like a right old fogey

Most of us don't. The people who do have been shouting louder though, and have been very effective at leveraging public sympathy.

Luckily that seems to be working less and less well over time as the demands made and the rigidity with gender rules are enforced escalates.

It means Sam believes in traditional, old fashioned gender stereotypes. Sam believes men should be strong, beer drinking, footie loving, macho type men. And women should wear makeup, pink clothes, dresses, giggle a lot.

As Sam thinks they’re so unique and that they don’t fit into an old fashioned stereotype (who does) they’ve come out with this piece of silliness.

It would be far better for everyone if people just didn’t believe in gender stereotypes. Saying if you don’t fit a stereotype then you can’t be that gender is damaging for both men and women.

Quite. Either everyone is non-binary when it comes to gender, or most people are innately gender stereotypical with the exception of a few enlightened non-binary souls who are sadly discriminated against for it.
I can't find the link but there was an excellent Medium article about how non-binary is the new 'I'm not like ordinary girls, I'm a cool girl'
I dont hold any bad feelings towards SS who comes across as nice if a bit of a twit, but if 'non-binary' is real, then so are sexual stereotypes, and I that's not progress. Its deeply regressive and sexist.

Very good points from PPs who probably grew up in the 80's...some of my male friends were wearing way more eyeliner than me and painting their long pointy nails black whilst I stomped about with short spiky hair wearing dungarees and DMs. They were still male and I was still female.

I think it's a positive step. I'd never want to hear them sing again but if that's how they want to be referred to, then great, thanks for the clarification.

I can't get my knickers in a twist about gender so for me, it's like when the bank call me Ms Surname, and I ask them to call me by my first name instead.

"if we don't assist them in their delusions then we're 'not nice'."

I find this with so much these days.

Apply any critical thought to anything and you're 'not nice'.

To me it's strange to want to be known as they/them . Thinking of sentences, " Go and give this to them/or they. "
Them would have me looking for more than one person, they would make me !
Surely if you want to be non binary, can't your name suffice ?

Yes, as a biological woman I have no idea what it feels like to be a woman. I know what it feels like to be me but I doubt 50% of the world feels the same.

Because you know, people are individuals.

I certainly have no idea what it feels like to be a man. So very interested in how Sam knows that sometimes they feel like a woman.

In all honesty OP, you will get a very skewed response to that question on mumsnet. This is not a site where the concept of non-binary gender is particularly well understood, and there is very little acceptance of it. If this site is the only place you're asking (I appreciate it may not be) you're going to get a very one-sided perspective on the issue.

If you're genuinely interested in getting a balanced response, you should also look at some sites / resources which accept and celebrate non-binary gender. I would recommend the following:

lgbt.foundation/who-we-help/trans-people/non-binary

transequality.org/issues/resources/understanding-non-binary-people-how-to-be-respectful-and-supportive

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.teenvogue.com/story/9-things-people-get-wrong-about-being-non-binary/amp

You may still come to prefer the mumsnet perspective, but in the spirit of unbiased research I would consider the other side of the debate as well.

It’s self indulgent silliness and attention seeking.

Sam is still a man. His music is still deathly dull.

It's a very normal feeling, that has been pathologised.

Exactly. There seems to be a rush to label every variance of humanity.

I recently discovered the existence of "demisexuality" which apparently means "liking to have an emotional connection with someone before you sleep with someone" I mean, I used to assume most people felt like this! Now i discover it's a label.

So someone who likes to play football, wears jeans and a T-shirt, paints their nails and isn't into hookups is now a "non-binary demisexual" instead of just.... a person.

Re “their” as a pronoun, I once read a medical report which said Ms X lived with “father and their Child”. I and my colleagues all read that at first as an incestuous relationship, particularly as elsewhere in the report the pronoun “she” was used. Actually it wasn’t - child’s father wasn’t in the picture. Unnecessary ambiguity imo

In all of these debates it seems to me that most people would be happier if there wasn’t as much gendered expectations and there were more matter of fact discussions about biological sex rather than gender issues.

A. I don’t know who it is
B. I don’t care, I have better things to do with my life
C. I would think at least 75% of the population agree

Feeling non binary and being non binary are two dofferent things surely?
People cannot change sex. They may want to identify in a way that makes them more comfortable.

I may choose to identify as a dolphin. That does not make me a dolphin.

Sex is binary.

The language used around this is so manipulative. One must "celebrate" this concept or else one is being unfair and unbalanced. Nobody is allowed to be indifferent to anyone else's sense of "gender" because the worst thing you can do to a narcissist is be indifferent to them.

It is all bullshit and baffle

Could we not just call Sam , Sam ?

I think it’s simply the rejection of gender stereotypes. There are certain things the majority of people accept as being ‘womanly’ and certain things which are ‘manly’. Sam Smith is saying they like both of those things and don’t fit into either box. That is how I have grasped the ‘non-binary’ thang, in layman’s terms.

I eye-rolled at ‘misgendering’ though. I don’t think it would be unfair of someone to meet Sam Smith having no idea who Sam Smith is (which wouldn’t be so crazy, I don’t think I’d particularly recognise him if I walked past him) and use he/him pronoun.

It's a bit like men coming out as women - so they wear a dress - yeah like all women are tripping around in dresses, I only wear them to weddings.

I know people who raise children non-binary so they are they/them from the very off. They never identify as she/he. One woman in particular has never told anyone whether her child is male or female.

I don't know who Sam Smith is either.

Society’s expectations based on gender are a big problem, gender norms for men are very very strict for men in the West, slightly less so than womens. Until both men and women can dress as they like, have hobbies they like etc in public without being seen as unusual then gender stereotypes will keep holding people back.

Where I’m from it’s completely normal for men to show physical affection to each other, to hold hands, to show that their upset/cry and to be nurturing. Sadly in many places in the UK showing affection to a male friend or relative would put you at risk of actual harm. In many places crying in front of others can still lead to verbal abuse passed off as banter, look at how many posters on here post abusive things about men who are willing to show their emotions by calling them mummys boys. Women who don’t take on the majority of housework and childcare are often subjected to people who disaprove, but those same people would think a man acting in that way is doing just fine.

The way a person looks, dresses or acts has nothing to do with their genitals, sadly society as a whole thinks genitals are what makes the person.