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Original poster

Sam Smith coming out as non-binary - help me understand!

531 replies

namechangeblah2019 · 15/09/2019 03:01

Name changed for this in case it gets messy.

I don't know if you've seen in the news but the singer Sam Smith came out as non-binary recently and has now asked that people use they/them pronouns with regard to them.

Absolutely not a problem with using those pronouns - I'm not a fan of theirs particularly so it's unlikely that they'll be cropping up that much in conversation anyway!

But - and I promise I am not being obtuse here, I am just old and slow but I am willing to learn Grin - what exactly is non-binary? I just can't wrap my head around it. Surely the existence of non-binariness as a concept positions it as an alternative to an existing binary (i.e. men being macho and loving beer, women being all pink and girly and love wine) which I thought we all got over (or are meant to be getting over - sadly some people are very slow on the uptake!) anyway?

If I put on a pair of trousers or drink a pint or watch football I don't feel any less like a woman. I still feel like namechangeblah2019. How can you both refute the existence of a gender binary but also claim to be outside of it?

Please be kind to me - as I say I'm not implying they are wrong at all and if that is how they feel most comfortable being referred to then good on them and we should all respect that! I just want to learn as I currently feel like a right old fogey Blush

OP posts:
DickKerrLadies · 15/09/2019 07:38

GlasshouseStoneThrower

According to your first link, I'm non-binary and therefore come under the trans umbrella.

But they don't really explain anything about non-binary that we haven't been saying here.

Like I said, I understand the struggle between one's personality and the expectations placed on someone due to their sex. Especially in the highly gendered society we seem to be living in now.

leaserspottedmummybird · 15/09/2019 07:39

I'd never actually heard of Sam Smith until I saw that article. Didn't jack Monroe come out as non binary too only to go back to female a few months later?
I do like jacks recipes.

leaserspottedmummybird · 15/09/2019 07:41

I admit I don't understand all this as I am getting old now. Apparently there are 21 recognised genders !! There were just two when I was a kid.

DickKerrLadies · 15/09/2019 07:41

Funnily enough, all I know about Sam Smith is from reading about Sam Smith the last time Sam Smith came out as non-binary

HotChocolateLover · 15/09/2019 07:42

The thing I didn’t get is that Sam Smith is willing to have a sex change. How on earth can you have a sex change if you’re non-binary and not identifying with anything? How would you decide what to change from and to? My head is spinning with that conundrum 😂

feelingverylazytoday · 15/09/2019 07:42

It's just attention seeking behaviour. I just ignore it as much as possible. Thankfully I don't know people like this in real life.

LiveInAHidingPlace · 15/09/2019 07:42

"I think it’s simply the rejection of gender stereotypes." I think it's the exact opposite.

"In all honesty OP, you will get a very skewed response to that question on mumsnet. This is not a site where the concept of non-binary gender is particularly well understood."

Oh please, that's very patronising. I think we all 'understand' perfectly well, we're just able to apply a bit of critical thought and see that it's complete nonsense.

Oh but of course a load of mums are just too silly and simple to understand the deep complexities of people whose gender is just so utterly complex.

I'd say most of us understand the constraints of gender far better than a 20 year old student, since most of us have been through childbirth or infertility or have had to give up careers to take care of children.

I will not have my opinion dismissed by such people because they think they understand better than me because they fanny about thinking about themselves way too much.

We've all been 20. We all remember how terribly special and different we felt. Trust me, the vast majority of women will change their tune massively on this issue as they get older.

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 15/09/2019 07:43

This is not a site where the concept of non-binary gender is particularly well understood, and there is very little acceptance of it

On the contrary, I think we understand it very, very well.
I had a look at the first link you posted and it's the same word salad relying on the belief in stereotypes to make sense.
And I wouldn't give a shiny shit how other people identify but this isn't people asking for a live and let live situation.
Across the world, womens rights are being watered down or outright voided because the legal definition of 'woman' is being changed.
This stuff is important and a 'you just don't understand' only adds credence to the way the whole thing sounds like a teenage strop.

speakout · 15/09/2019 07:44

SimonJT

II agree. But then why do so many transgender people ( usuallly men) seek to reinforce gender strerotypes?

I have a degree in science, spend my days in trousers, love DIY, Sci Fi moves, don't own shoes with heels, don't own a lipstick, have zero interest in handbags.
That does not make me "non binary", It makes me a human who happens to be female.

Tanith · 15/09/2019 07:45

All been done before.

The Artist Formerly Known As Prince made a long and tedious song and dance about no longer being Prince. It was quickly shortened by everyone to the less attention-grabbing “TAFKOP” which, I understand, infuriated him.

Happyspud · 15/09/2019 07:46

I think we need non-binary as an important step to finally remove gender as the #1 identifier and differentiater of humans. Lots of people say men and women are the same, and ‘oh I don’t go in for this pink for girls and blue for boys shit’. But they DO! In every thing they do and every way they communicate they unwittingly reinforce it. So although I agree we shouldn’t need non-binary to exist, I think we need to set it out in order to abolish gender (and keep just sex as a biologically relevant, societally irrelevant label).

KitKat1985 · 15/09/2019 07:46

The correct response to someone identifying as non-binary is "that's nice dear". Then continue as normal. Tedious, attention-seeking behaviour.

BelleSausage · 15/09/2019 07:47

So right @LiveInAHidingPlace

Most of the people spouting this crap haven’t felt the pointy end of sex discrimination. So of course it is easy for them to believe in the gender fairy and that pretending to be the opposite sex would make it all go away.

Even if I came out as a trans man I’d still be suffering from infertility and still be fucking depressed about my miscarriage. I wear trousers and boss my husband about all the time.

DickKerrLadies · 15/09/2019 07:47

Jack Monroe is/was a MNer, and posted some interesting threads a few years ago discussing what makes a woman. This was in her real name though, I don't know if she's still around under a name change. According to twitter, people who have never been on MN tell other people not to go on MN because they've heard we're really scary so I can understand if she doesn't want to admit to it!

She once posted on her bio that she was a trans woman, seeing as she identified (at the time?) as a non-binary female. She got so much flak from so called allies that she had to remove it.

I still follow her on twitter because I love her recipes. And there was the Katie Hopkins stuff which was pretty funny.

LiveInAHidingPlace · 15/09/2019 07:48

speakout I do often wonder how the NB crowd would feel about women like us. No doubt it doesn't look quite as exciting to be non binary when it involves just not really make a massive effort with your appearance. It's just not quite as sexy when it's more like 'I just can't really be arsed with this'.

tanith at least Prince was sexy and interesting and talented unlike Sam Smith who is basically a potato in human form.

Pippinsqueak · 15/09/2019 07:48

He is physically and biologically male, what he feels/identifies as is up to him. I do agree this "they/them" malarkey is a lot of bollocks and is attention seeking. It's going to be so hard not to offend people soon.

LiveInAHidingPlace · 15/09/2019 07:49

"According to twitter, people who have never been on MN tell other people not to go on MN because they've heard we're really scary so I can understand if she doesn't want to admit to it!"

God, people who call other people 'scary' or 'intimidating' get on my tits big time. Grow the fuck up ffs.

The80sweregreat · 15/09/2019 07:49

I try to understand all this , but it's hard.
It seems to make life more difficult rather than easier!

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 15/09/2019 07:50

Are potatoes normally that hairy where you live?

Helmetbymidnight · 15/09/2019 07:52

I think it’s simply the rejection of gender stereotypes

poor sam is like, im a man and i like driving fast and drinking beer but wtf i also like cuddling and flowers?!

oh wow, weird shit! how crazy is this!

so whereas most people - by the age of 5/6 go ' fuck that, i'll like whatever i like, football/handbags/housework/boxing/babies- gendered expectations are all bollocks' - sam came to a different conclusion: 'ooh this means i must be part lady!'

its not a rejection of stereotypes - its an endorsement.

speakout · 15/09/2019 07:53

SimonJT Exactly.

Gp to any supermarket and you will see lots of people wearing jeans, T shirt and no make up. Men and women.All unnoteworthy, all buying groceries, no headline news there. No attention grabbing stuff about
being non- binary.

The80sweregreat · 15/09/2019 07:57

I've found certain topics a bit scary on mumsnet ( Aibu can get confrontational) but mostly it's very supportive I think.
People writing about this thread are very well informed and it's opened my eyes a lot ( as an older 50 plus woman) to a lot of issues I wasn't aware of previously. I feel I've become a better person for being on here! More understanding of things.
I'm sure that Sam smith will be fine. Luckily I don't know him so I won't trip up by calling him 'he' instead of they.

Morgan12 · 15/09/2019 07:57

It's a load of shite.

I'm a woman. I love make up, pink, pretty dresses, doing my nails, getting my hair done, chick flicks etc.
I also love GTA and loads of other games and go to the football pretty much every week.

However, I am not an attention seeking arsehole therefore have never came out as non-binary.

Trimummy3 · 15/09/2019 07:58

I don’t get it. To be honest I would find it hard to use those pronouns. It’s all getting a bit silly now. I feel really sorry that kids born today won’t know any different than this crazy world.

Imagine teaching a kid this... how confusing! And all to please a small minority of people. It’s insane behaviour.

I read on Twitter the other day that EVERYONE must start using pronouns on the biog otherwise we are transphobic by not supporting trans people and non binary people. Well what a load of crap, something I don’t want to do. I’m not going to change the way I am to please a small minority. I don’t give a crap I’d you like men, women, both, none. I don’t care if you wear make up or wear trousers or both or none. I don’t go around saying “hello my name is xxxx and I like men and I’m straight” so why the hell should this all come up in conversation. Keep your preferences to yourself I say. And STOP trying to make others change to suit you.

Wouldn’t the pronoun “it” be better?! At least that makes sense.

Happyspud · 15/09/2019 07:59

I think in many cases people like SS are brave. Maybe belligerent. Maybe attention seeking. But they do us all a service. I think we’ll look back and think how unbelievable it was that gender was given such importance that it caused the complete oppression of half the world. I feel that there’s lots of women on here fighting tooth and nail just to keep the status quo because on a micro level they feel they’ve won the feminist battle themselves by being able to speak up in their relationship and have a job. For me it’s not enough that I have a happy and comfortable life. So to SS and everyone else throwing gender up in the air and starting steps that may lead to its removal, fucking go for it. I’m right behind you.