Sam Smith coming out as non-binary - help me understand!

[namechangeblah2019]

Name changed for this in case it gets messy.

I don't know if you've seen in the news but the singer Sam Smith came out as non-binary recently and has now asked that people use they/them pronouns with regard to them.

Absolutely not a problem with using those pronouns - I'm not a fan of theirs particularly so it's unlikely that they'll be cropping up that much in conversation anyway!

But - and I promise I am not being obtuse here, I am just old and slow but I am willing to learn - what exactly is non-binary? I just can't wrap my head around it. Surely the existence of non-binariness as a concept positions it as an alternative to an existing binary (i.e. men being macho and loving beer, women being all pink and girly and love wine) which I thought we all got over (or are meant to be getting over - sadly some people are very slow on the uptake!) anyway?

If I put on a pair of trousers or drink a pint or watch football I don't feel any less like a woman. I still feel like namechangeblah2019. How can you both refute the existence of a gender binary but also claim to be outside of it?

Please be kind to me - as I say I'm not implying they are wrong at all and if that is how they feel most comfortable being referred to then good on them and we should all respect that! I just want to learn as I currently feel like a right old fogey

I don't like posting Blaire White films but I often find they are illuminating in different ways.

I missed that contrapoints has left twitter for speaking out about pronouns and non binaries.

Interesting watch anout the non binary issue and hmmm sounds familiar 🤔...

Neuro yes very familiar

You are either biologically male or female. Identify as whatever you want. I really don’t see why it’s become such a big deal recently.

Some gender stereotypes do stem from biological factors i.e men biologically have more muscle mass, women have ovaries and probably have different more/less hormones relating to empathy or whatever. Obviously some stereotypes are just socially created but some are just how we are biologically created!

I find it worrying that some kids will grow up confused because they weren’t ever told what sex they are...”just be whoever you want” is confusing. Kids should be told what biological sex they are but not be forced into gender stereotypes. I’ll let my toddler play with toys and go to ballet if HE wants but I certainly won’t be so gender neutral that he has no direction in who he is I.e biologically male.

Personally I don't get the whole "non-binary" business, nor do I really understand transvestites or people feeling like their trapped in the body of the wrong sex. Personally I think there is only two genders; male and female and that is purely defined by what "bits" you were born with. I don't think your gender is defined by your personality.

I am a female and I was born as one. How do I know? Because I was born with a vagina, not a penis. However I am not what I would describe as a "stereotypical" female. I refuse to wear clothes such as skirts, dresses, "shorter-than-short shorts", and I refuse to wear makeup (It compliments the looks of some people, but to me it would feel like I am applying a layer of fakeness to myself. If people don't like my natural look they can stick their opinions up their ring piece, I couldn't care less). The one and ONLY time I have ever worn a dress was with a bit of lipstick when I was 5 years old, it was the one time and only because my auntie insisted as my younger cousin had done it.. I also don't care for fashion (designer clothes/shoes/jewellery). In fact I can say with almost 100% certainty I'd cry genuine tears if I had to spend more than £50 on a pair of shoes. I would most definitely be the Oxford Dictionary definition of a "plain jane".

As a child I also didn't do "typical" girly things. Rather than playing with barbies/dollies/teddies etc etc, I'd be playing with cars/dinosaurs/action man and play video games. I did have a few barbies, but they would've been totally abused ie. I would cut their hair off and paint/draw all over them.

Today I'm 25, and I can be found wearing loose T-shirts and comfy joggers with comfortable trainers. As for looks, I "rock" a complete au-naturel no-makeup look, hair that's in a permanent ponytail. I am overweight but then again always have been.

Despite this, I know and feel, and always have felt, that I am female. Just not the "stereotypical" type. Even though my personality probably gives off traits that are considered more "male", there's no doubt I am a woman. I was born with a "sausage wallet" and that's it.

I was reading this thread with interest the other day. The original post stated that Sam smith wants to be known as they/their but I heard an advert earlier on Spotify for the new album coming out and it said ‘his’ exciting new album. Wonder if the PR people didn’t get the memo! Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? I had never heard of non-binary before this thread. Must have been living under a rock!

Funnily enough I was 🤔 🙄 when I heard this but after reading some of the reactions on this thread, I feel defensive of him and his right to be the fuck he chooses to be.

Do you really need to ‘understand’ their choice?

I didn’t mention anything about ‘understanding’ their choice

" I heard an advert earlier on Spotify for the new album coming out and it said ‘his’ exciting new album."

Because when it comes down to it, basically no one actually remembers to use these pronouns because it's so unnatural to us. You can't force people to use language.

Even people defending him, I've seen them say "good for him" or "he's so strong". It's a farce.

"his right to be the fuck he chooses to be."

Find me one critical voice on this thread that doesn't defend that right.

Sam Smith can wear skirts, dresses, heels, lipstick, dance the macarena or become a paying member of the Conservative party and I will defend his right to do any of those things. He can't compel me to use language I don't believe in though.

For anyone who wants to listen to what SS says about it, a thoughtful interview here

It is about 20 minutes.

For anyone who just wants to pile in, carry on.

For those concerned about the changes in the English language (despite language being in constant change), do you get this wound up when people say 'less' when it should be 'fewer', or 'who' when strictly speaking it should be 'whom'? Both grammatical conventions which are dying out without much fuss being made (quite reasonably, in my opinion).

allington please, it's entirely more harmful to propose to be a different gender because you like some stereotypical things.

You can't possibly think it's just about language evolution.

I'm all for grammatical conventions, but being male or female is in no way akin to whether you say "less" or "fewer" (and there's a right and a wrong way for that too).
Being female is not a grammatical convention ffs

I disagree.

Some Native American traditions recognise more than two genders.

Not everyone is XX or XY in terms of chromosomes.

I couldn't care less whether someone else wants to be referred to as 'they' rather than 'he' or 'she'. I may not always know (or remember off-hand), but it is no problem for me, just as it is no problem for me if William prefers to be called Will, Bill, Billie, Billy (or Fred). Or this Elizabeth wants to be called by her full name, and that one is Lizzie with an 'i' and that one is Lizzy with a 'y'.

It gets a bit complicated in conversation (one of DD's friends has a parent that doesn't identify as male or female, and it gets a bit messy saying X's-parent-not-her-mum-the-other-one) but so what? The sky doesn't fall on our heads, and the parent-not-the-mum doesn't mind if people don't get it spot on.

Apart from the XX and XY chromosomes, what other ones are there? Can someone signpost me to the science about this?

"Some Native American traditions recognise more than two genders.

Not everyone is XX or XY in terms of chromosomes."

Right. Well last I checked, Sam Smith isn't native American.

Nor does he apparently have any chromosone issues.

Intersex people usually dislike being lumped into the trans rights movement btw.

They may we’ll recognise 2+ genders but you can be sure as hell they recognise 2 sexes.

It gets a bit complicated in conversation (one of DD's friends has a parent that doesn't identify as male or female, and it gets a bit messy saying X's-parent-not-her-mum-the-other-one) but so what? The sky doesn't fall on our heads, and the parent-not-the-mum doesn't mind if people don't get it spot on.

Sounds tiresome as fuck tbh.

"It gets a bit complicated in conversation (one of DD's friends has a parent that doesn't identify as male or female, and it gets a bit messy saying X's-parent-not-her-mum-the-other-one) but so what? The sky doesn't fall on our heads, and the parent-not-the-mum doesn't mind if people don't get it spot on."

What absolute attention seeking bullshit.

Just keep it to sex based pronouns. Or does /she he also change to his ‘girl’ or ‘boy’ name when it suits? Attention seeking dingbat. Can you really not say ‘dad’?

It gets a bit complicated in conversation (one of DD's friends has a parent that doesn't identify as male or female, and it gets a bit messy saying X's-parent-not-her-mum-the-other-one) but so what? The sky doesn't fall on our heads, and the parent-not-the-mum doesn't mind if people don't get it spot on.

How very magnanimous of them! They have made (frankly quite bizarre) demands of other people but are tolerant of other's mistakes. Mistakes that their specialness is responsible for in the first place. We could all be like that which, in turn, would make them not so special but would make life extremely confusing.

@bingowingsmcgee

XXY syndrome

Seems to me that the people kicking against defined gender are actually the ones who are responsible for reinforcing it.

What does Sam Smith even mean when they say they sometimes have sex like a woman? Apart from presuming that all women participate in sex in the same way and always the same way?

My family and friends don’t conform to social behaviours based on gender constructs. Some women do maintenance, heavy gardening, play football, get bolshy. Some men cook, do domestic chores, like theatre, get emotional, wear pink. Flippant examples, but the point is, no one even notices, cares, or thinks they’re being ‘different’ They’re simply X being X and doing what X enjoys.

You consider it bizarre, they don't.

There are lots of things other people believe that I consider bizarre.

Sex, except for the purposes of procreation, is a sin (Catholics)
Trump is making/will make America great again (Trump supporters)
Brexit is a good thing (Brexit supporters)
Men are/should be the head of the household (evangelical Christians)
Homosexuality is a sin/choice (Catholics and evangelical Christians)
State schools are inferior to private schools/private schools iniquitous

To suggest a few off the top of my head. If someone wants to be called 'they', I'll call them 'they' (when I remember). Personally I find some of the other beliefs I have mentioned far more damaging.

Triple X syndrome

Funnily enough I was 🤔 🙄 when I heard this but after reading some of the reactions on this thread, I feel defensive of him and his right to be the fuck he chooses to be.

But no so defensive that you feel the need to submit to his request.