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Sam Smith coming out as non-binary - help me understand!

531 replies

namechangeblah2019 · 15/09/2019 03:01

Name changed for this in case it gets messy.

I don't know if you've seen in the news but the singer Sam Smith came out as non-binary recently and has now asked that people use they/them pronouns with regard to them.

Absolutely not a problem with using those pronouns - I'm not a fan of theirs particularly so it's unlikely that they'll be cropping up that much in conversation anyway!

But - and I promise I am not being obtuse here, I am just old and slow but I am willing to learn Grin - what exactly is non-binary? I just can't wrap my head around it. Surely the existence of non-binariness as a concept positions it as an alternative to an existing binary (i.e. men being macho and loving beer, women being all pink and girly and love wine) which I thought we all got over (or are meant to be getting over - sadly some people are very slow on the uptake!) anyway?

If I put on a pair of trousers or drink a pint or watch football I don't feel any less like a woman. I still feel like namechangeblah2019. How can you both refute the existence of a gender binary but also claim to be outside of it?

Please be kind to me - as I say I'm not implying they are wrong at all and if that is how they feel most comfortable being referred to then good on them and we should all respect that! I just want to learn as I currently feel like a right old fogey Blush

OP posts:
NeelixFelicis · 15/09/2019 21:57

I know, I've seen them on twitter also saying they were on their period, and I just thought they were joking, but no, they seem to have co-opted that as their own too.

Isn't it funny...despite many of these TW being middle aged and older, it's periods they chose to hijack, not menopause.
I guess menopause is just icky, and doesn't fit the sexy, youthful image of the woman they want but fail to embody.

nicky7654 · 15/09/2019 22:03

He is an attention seeker! Needs to grow up and grow some balls. Whiney men is such a turn off!

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 15/09/2019 22:09

The label Gender Critical tends to refer exclusively to an objection/rejection of trans on every level, but as so often happens with trans-debate, it isn't that simple. All feminism is gender-critical by definition. The variance of that criticism doesn't have to go to the extremes of denying the concept of gender exists at all, nor does it have to go full-circle back to biological essentialism, and of arguing for or against women's rights on that basis. It's as complex an argument as the suggestion that all of us are to some degree non-binary. In which case, there'd be no need for fanfare when one of us 'comes out'.

No one can say with certainty to what extent our subjectivities are socially constructed, or where the line exists between constructivism and essentialism. It's a tilting at windmills debate. And if the nuture/social construct side of the equation is responsible for shaping our identities through a set of regulatory practices, embodied and encoded in historically-specific discourse as the likes of Foucault would claim, we can no more escape these constraints at any given moment in time than we can escape our biology.

Which is why it's so seriously concerning that things since the days of the new Romantics, Boy George, the second-wave feminists, the gender-bending of the likes of Bowie without exciting much comment, is such a retrograde (and in my view catastrophic) step. It starts at birth, and #pinkification. We must all be pigeonholed into neat little categories, and if those categories don't exist, they must be created so society doesn't have to face and confront its uncomfortable 'other'.

TRA et al are trying to boil this down to clear simplistics and brief soundbites. The creation of these categories are reinforcing and upholding the old, dangerous stereotypes (and the blue/pink unicorns/dinosaur binaries are as false and socially-created as any view of gender suggested above). The more we as a society subscribe to these, the more we'll perpetuate them. (And 'gender-neutral' clothing in babyhood is bollocks. There's no such thing as gendered colour-coding).

Pathologize everything, seems to be our motto. If it sneezes, waddles, quacks or squeaks, stick a label on it or diagnose something. If you're a woman and you're ageing, fill your face with botox; if you're a man and you cry or have depression, 'man up', talk to no one about your issues, and end up being one of the statistics of the biggest killer of UK males under 50.

We all suffer here. There are no winners. And no one has yet come up with a reasoned discussion as to what happens when the rights of two separate groups of people - women and transwomen - conflict. All you're likely to get out of that one is 'transwomen are women' and #NoDebate.

This Sam Smith, whoever they are, is doing nothing to resist such damaging stereotyping. They are perpetuating them.

Incidentally, I'm not sure whether the categories of 21 genders vary from place to place, but the one I've read contains the term 'cisgender'. It does not include 'male' or 'female'.

FudgeBrownie2019 · 15/09/2019 22:12

I think it's perfectly possible to use their preferred pronouns and still feel strongly that non-binary is simply a way of saying you have very stereotyped beliefs and feelings of what a men and women are.

I know men who are not 'typical' loutish, loud, beer-swilling men and I know women whose strength and drinking capacity could floor a lumberjack. There aren't any definite norms for gender in terms of what a man and a woman should look like, how they should dress, how they should behave; the last fifty years have wiped the floor with our beliefs in terms of who we need to be to fit with others preconceived ideas. So non-binary feels kind of moot for me.

If Sam Smith feels that they need to use different pronouns, I think they must have very old-fashioned ideas of what men and women are, which surprises me a little because it makes me question is being a gay man different to being a man?

UniversalAunt · 15/09/2019 22:13

Well, once you bring Foucault in to this, it’s a slam dunk 😉.

Campervan69 · 15/09/2019 22:47

It's utter nonsense

We are born male or female

People cannot change their biological sex

That's it as far as I'm concerned.

Getting a bit sick of ridiculous celebrity culture ATM. They're so self obsessed and each cheers the others on to the next bit of ridiculousness. Whilst the plebs have to get on with real life.

LiveInAHidingPlace · 16/09/2019 02:21

"Pathologize everything, seems to be our motto"

Exactly this. Nothing is just a feeling or a personality anymore. Everything needs to be labelled so that we all feel comfortable and safe.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 16/09/2019 07:31

Camper, it's all a bit let them eat cake isn't it.

MissB83 · 16/09/2019 07:43

OP I'm glad you posted this because I find it really confusing too!

My brother is also non-binary and I'm trying really hard to understand him and where he's coming from but it eludes me. If he had "come out" as gay or even trans then I would have a handle on it but I guess my experience has not been that gender is a constraining thing or a set of neat boxes. Yes there are damaging social expectations of gender which hurt both men and women but they haven't prevented me living my life. The only way I can really understand it is that he is upset by the way that society tells him he has to be "a man" and wants to resist that, but then he has always been an atypically very sensitive, emotional man which is one of the things I respect and love about him- and personally I feel it's a shame he doesn't feel able to "fly the flag" for the best qualities in his gender! I do however respect his wishes and use the neutral pronouns etc.

nicky7654 · 16/09/2019 11:13

yep!!!!

Confusedbeetle · 16/09/2019 11:17

I cannot feel male or female because I dont know thr difference. I have never been male so I dont know wht it feels like. I am just me. I have so little tolerance for this naval gazing. And as for the pronouns thing, sheesh

Confusedbeetle · 16/09/2019 11:19

@Miss B , good post. Please can all men be the sort of men they want to be, whether that is shades of so called "feminine traits" or not. That way we can shake off the cave man stereotypes and celebrate men in all their differences

Huskylover1 · 16/09/2019 12:07

It's the Emperors New Clothes. Init?

VeryLittleOwl · 16/09/2019 12:43

emilybrontescorsett Sun 15-Sep-19 10:27:10

Bottom line.
He's not that interesting and does not have the flair to be Mick Hutchence, David Bowie, Annie Lennox, Hazel O'Connor etc.
The above had the x factor for want of a better word.
Mick Hutchence stood on stage and probably ever man ,woman and their dog would fall to their knees if they thought they had any chance of spending time alone with him. He oozed sex appeal.

I read that as Mick Hucknall the first couple of times and was thinking 'Seriously???!?!'

Another vote of thanks for MrsTodds first post, which I thought was brilliant.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 16/09/2019 13:14

So sam has bought a house so the papers tell me... Not sure who else with though. It's rather confusing!

"A source told The Sun: 'Sam is one of the biggest pop-stars in the country, and has been handsomely rewarded as a result.

'But they have also been very wise with their money, had sound financial advice and invested sensibly in bricks and mortar."

beatriceprior · 16/09/2019 13:18

Sorry if this is a stupid question but I struggle
To understand also.

If your non binary so you identify with neither gender are you still classed as male or female because that is your sex isn't it or is this different?

What may be an even more stupid question but I again don't understand,

What toilets do you expect
To use if you are non binary?

Tia

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 16/09/2019 13:23

Sex is important. If you were to knee a person in the crotch gender thoughts/a pink t shirt won't save them from the agony if they are male-bodied.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 16/09/2019 13:24

Nor will it stop you from coming gown with testicular cancer, nor being aborted/murdered at birth for being a girl.

NeurotrashWarrior · 16/09/2019 13:44

Beatrice

I think it used to be known as 'gender non conforming' (which we all are generally) except that to be a non binary person who was born female these days also includes chopping their breasts off. The men just wear make up. And some now want to control their pronouns force us to comply to their belief too.

They're trying to create a kind of third androgynous sex. Except that the argument that they feel and act like a women is very sexist.

Confusedbeetle · 16/09/2019 13:45

The pronoun is plural. He should be it

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 16/09/2019 13:49

Maybe Thing 1,2, etc - like in Dr Seuss.

Sounds like a power thing - 'I will make you tie yourself in knots whilst attempting to change the conventions of spoken and written English haha!'

beatriceprior · 16/09/2019 14:11

Thank you Neuro

NeurotrashWarrior · 16/09/2019 14:20

Your sex simply can't be non binary. It's an impossibility. We are a binary species.

Intersex is completely different and as a disorder of sexual development, a person with an intersex condition with ultimately either be male or female. The inclusion of a Y chromosome means you are Male. Androgen sensitivity syndrome is different.

And you can't enforce an ideology in others. The idea that there's a third sex or that you can actually change sex as in your xy chromosomes become xx. That is impossible.

Ergo toilets; you use the toilet of your sex or a single enclosed unisex one.

beatriceprior · 16/09/2019 14:38

Thank you so a non binary person would happily use the toilets for their sex but in their head they feel like neither man nor women.

Ok I get this. (So they just feel like a person🤷🏻‍♀️).

So the non binary is totally separate from the men identifying as women and wanting everyone else to believe they are women and vice Versa.

NeurotrashWarrior · 16/09/2019 14:56

Err I don't know about happily?! A sensible non binary person would use the toilet of their sex. A confused one would possibly not.

I honestly don't know. It's evolving as we speak.

What's more pertinent to Sam's case is will he be returning his best male artist award/s?

And what category will he be in next time?!

Ok I get this. (So they just feel like a person🤷🏻‍♀️).

Yep.

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