AIBU to be so paralysed with indecision about a 3rd child? Need to decide today / tomorrow

[shallweshantwe2019]

IVF / pregnancy loss / should we stick at two or try for three? / I'm nearly 42 / need to decide today / tomorrow!

'You don't regret the children you have!' - that's a cliché that always comes up when I google this question. Is it true?

I am literally going crazy with indecision on whether to have a third. Been considering it since start of this year and DH has told me he wouldn't have suggested it, it's not his preference, he feels complete with two but will support my decision as doesn't want me to regret not trying later. The crucial info is that we have 2 x good quality embryos in storage from an earlier IVF cycle when I was much younger. I need to decide asap (period this month is looming today or tomorrow and that's when I need to start the process) whether to try for a third using them. (We may 'resolve' the remaining embryos issue if we try and we may not. Maybe the first embryo defrosted will be suitable for transfer and if so we would still have one left that we have no intention of using as definitely wouldn't want 4 children. So going ahead with the treatment doesn't guarantee that we'd resolve the issue completely. This would only happen if one or both of the embryos defrosted were judged not suitable for transfer....)

I have 2 x DS (one is 7 and one is 3). Eldest is IVF, then had two MCs (one IVF frozen cycle loss and one natural conception loss) and youngest is a natural conception. The IVF process, the MCs and the second pregnancy were all emotionally hard and stressful, even though I have two beautiful boys as a result. The pregnancies were fine but second very stressful due to previous losses and the births were different - typical long complicated labour with the first and much quicker and easier with the second. I am nearly 42. Eldest arrived when I was 34 and youngest when I was 38.

What's pushing the desire for a third?

• Feeling not quite 'done'. (Does every feel this? How did you get over it?)
• Feeling of obligation to use the remaining blastocyst embryos we have (even if practically we might only actually use one in a cycle and would then have to let the remaining one 'go to research'.) I feel like I'd be wasting them, killing them even, to not even try to use them to get pregnant. I would mourn this as much as anything and know I would always wonder what they look like.
• My youngest starts FT school next year. Feeling like a phase of my life is over and anxious about what comes next.
• I am one of two and due to a v large age gap me and my sibling are not especially close. I would like my sons to be close and think having an extra sibling would give them more family (obv!)
• I am already an 'older' mum. I will already be 56 when my youngest heads off to uni if he goes, and I'll be nearly 60 when he graduates. (My mum had me relatively old and passed away recently in her mid-70s. I miss her so and wish she was here to be gran to my boys. But this doesn't mean I don't wish I had the boys...! And none of us know how long we have and if we'll have or live to meet grandchildren anyway...)

What's holding me back?

• Wondering if the 'not done' feeling comes from the fact I have these embryos there, waiting and the fact that my other two are just growing up i.e. a normal phase that all mums go through. I wouldn't be pushing to try to conceive afresh at my age due to worries about genetic abnormalities.
• The one embryo we used previously from the frozen batch didn't work so it's entirely possible these won't either as they are slightly less good quality.
• The increase in 'to do' and 'stuff' that a third would bring.
• Lack of time with any one child, feeling spread too thin.

-Lack of time for me and husband

• Worry about every stage - the frozen embryo cycle and if it works will I be happy or worried, the 9 mths of pregnancy, possible miscarriage especially if later on, the extra medical intervention that is inevitable being a 40+ pregnant, possible birth complications (NICU or stillbirth...) and impact of all this on me, my other two children and husband...
• DH says a 3rd cannot be easier in any way. I'm sure he's right, at least in the short-medium term.
• Holidays and activities would need to cut back with three children.

So, if we go for it and it works we'll need to change my car for a bigger one (DH has a work car so no option to change that and it won't take 3 child seats in the back), will need to move soon-ish (before or after baby 3 is born (to a bigger house and massively declutter a loft and garage before that). I will need to take 12 mths mat leave again (I only get SMP in my job which pays £13k gross PA - DH earns £50k gross and is secure). Both boys will be in FT school come Sept 2020 so bulk of childcare will be just for #3 when I return to work and I'd have all day with the bay when on mat leave. I work part time currently and would go back part time after any 3rd baby.

Do I throw caution to the wind and at least try? Or is that crazy and irrational?

If we don't go for it, how to I move on mentally and emotionally? Will I need to grieve? Will the wonder 'what if?' ever go away?

I've had a couple of counselling sessions at the IVF clinic but to no avail.
DH says I just need to decide and not feel guilty either way and move on either way. Decision-making especially of this kind is not my strong point.

I can see positives later down the line of having 3 children and the immediate oxytocin rush of a newborn is like a drug but I feel there's a lot of tough stuff to get through between now and then and the later, more independent children stage.

Stick or twist? Be happy with the two I have who are more than I ever thought I would have or try for one more? Which regret is harder to live with?

I know people get pregnant at my age unplanned and it all works out fine but we would be actively taking steps to get pregnant which is different. And this would be our third, not a much-longed for 1st at the same age.

Please help. I can't function for thinking about this all.

If you had similar dilemmas - sticking at 2, not using good left over embryos - how did you make peace with it all?
(DH and I agree we couldn't donate embryos to another couple.)

HELP!!

I’m normally quite against women trying for babies past 40, when most could have tried younger and didn’t for their career.

Can you point me to the source of this? I'm surprised that it's not because they didn't meet an appropriate partner or didn't have the money required, or had battled infertility.

Please come back and update op I would be very interested in what you decide

@mistermagpie I'm glad my comments helped. Lots of people say a third child just slots in and I'd say that was true for us in many ways. Although, it wasn't a seamless transition. There were definitely moments when I felt very aware how some things would be 'easier' with two. But the joy and love from a third makes it all worth it. (Trite but true). After a while I stopped noticing whether things were harder or easier with three and was able to just enjoy it. None of us could imagine life any other way now. Each child tells me they get enough parent time and the older two are very adamant any differences (which they don't usually notice) are worth it for their much loved younger sibling.

You'll love being a family of 5 I'm sure ❤️

*@Ithinkmycatisevil
*
I’m normally quite against women trying for babies past 40, when most could have tried younger and didn’t for their career.

I started TTC at age 29 and am still trying at age 40. I have been pregnant several times but miscarried/ectopic/stillborn. You don't know the road most people need to take to get there. Most women don't wake up at age 40 thinkinf: "oh I'd like a baby now". There's mostly a sad backstory.

It's really hard. I didnt have the added IVF complications but I did have difficult births with my two boys and was told not to risk having more. So we didn't..I always wanted three and I do still feel a loss and wonder if we should have investigated further. It's kind of like a feeling of unfinished business. I've never felt done, even though we definitely are now at 46 with teenagers. The yearning does lessen though, and 2 children are easier in terms of cost and transportation!

@cranstonmanor

I’m sorry to hear of your struggles with ttc. There will always be individuals with difficult back stories like yours and obviously I wouldn’t begrudge you a much wanted baby if your were to fall pregnant now.

The OPs case is very different. She already has 2 children and if it wasn’t for her frozen embryos, I wouldn’t think it was for the best to ttc a 3rd.

You also have to admit lots and lots of women are now waiting until their late 30s or even 40s before they even ttc. Which to me seems madness when the best of your child bearing years are behind you. That’s all.

Apologies if I upset you.

We have two children, one ivf, one natural. We had frozen embryos but decided we had been extremely lucky and didn’t want to push our luck. We donated the embryos for research. We’ve never had any regrets it was the right thing to do for us.

I wasn't in the same position re IVF etc. but sat on the fence for a long time about having a 3rd, decided against it because I didn't want to be running around after a toddler at 40 - and then had a surprise baby at almost 42 anyway! My only real regret is that he is a lot younger than his older sibs & is almost an only child. (He was 8 when sis went off to college).
One thing I did worry about was how much it would be on my shoulders, because my husband was ok with just the two. Make sure yours would be totally on board if you went for number 3. But don't decide yes just because you want a girl.

I feel lucky that our last ivf was a rubbish cycle comparatively and we only ended up with one viable embryo in the end (that part was successful!). I had been torn previously by still having frozen ones. When it came to using them, only mc followed so in the end my anxiety was for nothing.
You can either look at the storage as a cost of the overall ivf cycle and don’t let it sway you as the cost of a child is considerably more. You can view the embryos as cells that are no more potential children than wasted sperm and eggs each month. They have no chance of becoming a baby unless they are allowed to develop - exactly the same as ovulation prior to a period. It feels different but only by virtue that the male dna has already been chosen rather than random selection prior to fertilisation.

I too wondered if I’d ever be ‘finished’, but now I’m pregnant with number 3 I can assure you the feeling of ‘never again’ is strong and any urges for a 4th are felt only by my mil.

If I was you, and if your oh was in agreement, I’d go for it. You’ll always imagine a third and pine for what might be if you don’t if you’re so close to a decision. If you try, then it’ll be tough if it’s successful and if it’s not but there is peace in knowing you tried.

As for guilt. You’ll get guilt regardless. If you don’t you’ll feel guilty about ‘killing’ your kids, if you do then you’ll feel guilty about imposing a 3rd on your happy arrangement.

@Ithinkmycatisevil again, please could you post the source that found that most women trying for babies past 40 postponed ttc for their careers? was it their first babies or all including later ones?

As I said, I'm surprised the data showed that, as I would have assumed it was due to not finding an appropriate partner, or physical problems conceiving earlier in life (fertility in the west is declining), or not having the funds, rather than prioritising a career. That's why I'm interested to see the data!

@popehilarious

If you have time to analyse data for a post on a thread on mumsnet, then you need to get out more. Of course I didn’t look at any official data.

But you only have to look around you at women you know in real life and read the posts on here to see that there are many women who don’t prioritise having a family until they are in their late thirties, as they are busy building their careers and ensuring that everything is perfect financially before trying to start a family. Which obviously leaves them with little time if things don’t run smoothly, on top of the added risks that being older brings to pregnancy.

There will always be exceptional circumstances, where people don’t meet a suitable partner until later in life, or they have years of infertility before finally conceiving. But there are also plenty who want to focus on the career for many years. I work with many of them. So yes my data is anecdotal, but as I say, I have better things to do with my time than research for a post on mumsnet. I was merely training to give the OP my opinion as she was also worried about her age and ttc.

Apologies for the typos.

It's not all 'babies or career' though is it? I mean, my 'career' is just a quite shit job, I just simply didn't want children until I was 35. And that's fine too.

So you made up something and posted it as fact in a thread where it is potentially quite offensive to many people affected by similar issues as the OP.

If you consider facts to be facts rather than biased opinion, then yes, I do expect it to have some basis in reality rather than assuming you know the reasons for everyone you supposedly know who have not had children before an arbitrary age and applying those assumed reasons to the whole population.

Many more people struggle with infertility than you might expect btw. And guess what, they might tell people they're focusing on their careers rather than discuss their partner's sperm or their fallopian tubes with colleagues.

Maybe I should have used the word many instead of most in my original post. It was not intended as a research based fact. I certainly never expected anyone to take it that way . It was just an observation from people I know and things I have read posted on here. I did not mean to offend anyone struggling with infertility. It was a bit of a throw away comment regarding that fact I don’t understand why people would CHOOSE to wait until that age to ttc knowing the increased risks for mother and baby as well as the affects on the DC down the line of having a much older parent. Maybe I should have made it more clear.

Anyway. We are derailing a thread where the OP was trying to get advice and opinions on an important life choice. I’d rather not turn it into a witch hunt.

I also have 2 children from ivf after many years of trying with miscarriages as well. I have 6 embryos in the freezer and haven't completely decided what to do with them.

I think your deadline is self imposed and needless. You can only store the embryos for 10 years so you have 3 years left. Take the pressure off and say in 2 years time you will make the final decision. I too gave myself a tight deadline and couldnt decide and couldnt stop stewing over it. I wanted the kids to be closer together in age etc etc. But I wasn't ready to start treatment again. Ivf teaches you that baby making doesn't go to plan. You don't get to choose when you have your kids or what age gap you get.

I'm just paying to store my embryos for the 7 years I have left. Who knows what could happen in that 7 years.

I couldnt destroy it donate them but I do think of letting them be used for research or training. After all the reason that I could have ivf is because other people gave the same sacrifice so people could discover ivf and make it work.

Not meaning to sound negative but you are putting so much thought into the babies that you may be over exaggerating your chances of success. Even with healthy pregnancies previously the chances of 4 babies from a clutch of 5 embryos (I think you said you have 1 child from this batch and one miscarriage) are very remote.

In your shoes I would change the deadline to a year or 2 from now. If your frightened of what happens when youngest starts school then wait and see what happens. My views have changed considerably in the last year. My youngest is nearly 3 and a year ago I was desperate for another baby. But now youngest has started nursery and I'm looking forward to going back to work and really enjoying being out of the toddler stage.

Just give yourself more time and try not to think about it now until at least after xmas. Your clearly not ready now so stop stressing yourself with it.

Good luck.

Did you decide?

Thanks for all the posts.

We decided not to go for it. Ultimately, I can't go through a process like frozen embryo transfer to try for a third with the feeling that my husband will secretly be more relieved than disappointed if it's not successful. And if it did work, with the feeling that he would maybe take a long time to come around to feeling that was the best outcome. On reflection, it feels wrong to go into the process without the strong and unequivocal longing / desperation that we felt every other time we tried to get pregnant. I am trying to make the mind-shift from thinking of all the people I know who went for 3 (for whatever reason!) to instead reminding myself of all those who stopped at 2 (for whatever reason!)

I am starting to rationalise the issue of the embryos:

• just because they are there doesn't mean we are obliged to use them, doesn't mean they would survive thawing, doesn't mean they would implant and doesn't mean they would become a live baby.
• donating them to research or training is helping others and can be seen as part of the IVF process in that without others having done the same before we would not have DS1.
• we already 'lost' a number of embryos which were created when we had our IVF cycle and which didn't develop well past day 3 after fertilisation and they are also 'part of the process' that we didn't choose but couldn't avoid either.

I do think that more needs to be done to support those who go through IVF to warn them that they may find themselves in this position and also to help them with the dilemma when they do.
IVF by its nature is a process which means you want a few shots at conception and cycles are run that way (ideally a good few but not excessive numbers of eggs collected and a good number fertilised to embryos) but that means it's possible that you'll end up where we are now.
I do appreciate people saying to give it longer before deciding but we really can't as we've been debating this for almost 6 months as it is and it's hanging over us and affecting us daily.

This thread has been so helpful in working through the issues.
I feel sad, like a grief of some kind. It's hard to distinguish what is because there won't be a third baby, and what is because my two children are growing up. Any help with that latter question - how do you cope with the feeling of sadness of your kids growing up? - would be most welcome. Might need another thread though.... Feels like madness to feel like an semi-empty-nester when my youngest is still only 3! I'm starting to wonder if I have a more general mild depression and anxiety issues that need addressing... Definitely need to work on being more mindful and grateful for what I have.

And I still need to start the process of donating them to research / training with the clinic where they're being stored. That will take some emotional energy itself.
I do think some kind of memorial will be helpful, however I choose to go about it.

So glad you updated, OP!

I think you made a very wise and sensible decision, in such a very difficult, emotional dilemma.

Of coirse it's natural to feel a type of grief over this, but please don't allow it to take precedence in your life. (I know that's easier said than done, as I have a tendency towards rumination myself.)

Perhaps one day, one of your boys will give you a little granddaughter -- and then you can enjoy her adorableness fully; and will be able to hand her back when you're knackered!

That is an excellent post, OP. It's clear that you've given this a lot of thought, and FWIW I think you've made the right decision. Wishing you all the very best