AIBU to be so paralysed with indecision about a 3rd child? Need to decide today / tomorrow

[shallweshantwe2019]

IVF / pregnancy loss / should we stick at two or try for three? / I'm nearly 42 / need to decide today / tomorrow!

'You don't regret the children you have!' - that's a cliché that always comes up when I google this question. Is it true?

I am literally going crazy with indecision on whether to have a third. Been considering it since start of this year and DH has told me he wouldn't have suggested it, it's not his preference, he feels complete with two but will support my decision as doesn't want me to regret not trying later. The crucial info is that we have 2 x good quality embryos in storage from an earlier IVF cycle when I was much younger. I need to decide asap (period this month is looming today or tomorrow and that's when I need to start the process) whether to try for a third using them. (We may 'resolve' the remaining embryos issue if we try and we may not. Maybe the first embryo defrosted will be suitable for transfer and if so we would still have one left that we have no intention of using as definitely wouldn't want 4 children. So going ahead with the treatment doesn't guarantee that we'd resolve the issue completely. This would only happen if one or both of the embryos defrosted were judged not suitable for transfer....)

I have 2 x DS (one is 7 and one is 3). Eldest is IVF, then had two MCs (one IVF frozen cycle loss and one natural conception loss) and youngest is a natural conception. The IVF process, the MCs and the second pregnancy were all emotionally hard and stressful, even though I have two beautiful boys as a result. The pregnancies were fine but second very stressful due to previous losses and the births were different - typical long complicated labour with the first and much quicker and easier with the second. I am nearly 42. Eldest arrived when I was 34 and youngest when I was 38.

What's pushing the desire for a third?

• Feeling not quite 'done'. (Does every feel this? How did you get over it?)
• Feeling of obligation to use the remaining blastocyst embryos we have (even if practically we might only actually use one in a cycle and would then have to let the remaining one 'go to research'.) I feel like I'd be wasting them, killing them even, to not even try to use them to get pregnant. I would mourn this as much as anything and know I would always wonder what they look like.
• My youngest starts FT school next year. Feeling like a phase of my life is over and anxious about what comes next.
• I am one of two and due to a v large age gap me and my sibling are not especially close. I would like my sons to be close and think having an extra sibling would give them more family (obv!)
• I am already an 'older' mum. I will already be 56 when my youngest heads off to uni if he goes, and I'll be nearly 60 when he graduates. (My mum had me relatively old and passed away recently in her mid-70s. I miss her so and wish she was here to be gran to my boys. But this doesn't mean I don't wish I had the boys...! And none of us know how long we have and if we'll have or live to meet grandchildren anyway...)

What's holding me back?

• Wondering if the 'not done' feeling comes from the fact I have these embryos there, waiting and the fact that my other two are just growing up i.e. a normal phase that all mums go through. I wouldn't be pushing to try to conceive afresh at my age due to worries about genetic abnormalities.
• The one embryo we used previously from the frozen batch didn't work so it's entirely possible these won't either as they are slightly less good quality.
• The increase in 'to do' and 'stuff' that a third would bring.
• Lack of time with any one child, feeling spread too thin.

-Lack of time for me and husband

• Worry about every stage - the frozen embryo cycle and if it works will I be happy or worried, the 9 mths of pregnancy, possible miscarriage especially if later on, the extra medical intervention that is inevitable being a 40+ pregnant, possible birth complications (NICU or stillbirth...) and impact of all this on me, my other two children and husband...
• DH says a 3rd cannot be easier in any way. I'm sure he's right, at least in the short-medium term.
• Holidays and activities would need to cut back with three children.

So, if we go for it and it works we'll need to change my car for a bigger one (DH has a work car so no option to change that and it won't take 3 child seats in the back), will need to move soon-ish (before or after baby 3 is born (to a bigger house and massively declutter a loft and garage before that). I will need to take 12 mths mat leave again (I only get SMP in my job which pays £13k gross PA - DH earns £50k gross and is secure). Both boys will be in FT school come Sept 2020 so bulk of childcare will be just for #3 when I return to work and I'd have all day with the bay when on mat leave. I work part time currently and would go back part time after any 3rd baby.

Do I throw caution to the wind and at least try? Or is that crazy and irrational?

If we don't go for it, how to I move on mentally and emotionally? Will I need to grieve? Will the wonder 'what if?' ever go away?

I've had a couple of counselling sessions at the IVF clinic but to no avail.
DH says I just need to decide and not feel guilty either way and move on either way. Decision-making especially of this kind is not my strong point.

I can see positives later down the line of having 3 children and the immediate oxytocin rush of a newborn is like a drug but I feel there's a lot of tough stuff to get through between now and then and the later, more independent children stage.

Stick or twist? Be happy with the two I have who are more than I ever thought I would have or try for one more? Which regret is harder to live with?

I know people get pregnant at my age unplanned and it all works out fine but we would be actively taking steps to get pregnant which is different. And this would be our third, not a much-longed for 1st at the same age.

Please help. I can't function for thinking about this all.

If you had similar dilemmas - sticking at 2, not using good left over embryos - how did you make peace with it all?
(DH and I agree we couldn't donate embryos to another couple.)

HELP!!

@shallweshantwe2019 no, to be fair I had no worries about the pregnancy and birth. I don't like being pregnant, never have, and don't like little babies even that much! But I wanted another child. I personally don't see any point worrying about what a pregnancy and birth will be like because in my experience they are all different anyway.

What I will say though, is that this pregnancy has been way way harder than my other two. I don't think it's age (my youngest is only two) or anything specific about my health in this pregnancy, it's just the fact of being pregnant whilst looking after two other children.

I have no experience of IVF but my 2 kids are teens now and while the teen years have actually been a lot harder than I thought they would be, I have a really strong and lovely bond with each of them because I’ve had the time to nurture it. I look at friends with 3 kids and they just seem to constantly be juggling with no real time for that. Or for themselves either.
Honestly I’d stop at 2. The kids you have are healthy and that’s something to be very grateful for. What if your third wasn’t? It’s a much higher probability due to your age.
And really, your husband isn’t on board for a third, is he?

I also feel a third would be slightly out of a feeling of "obligation" and not sure if I could shake that completely. I definitely wanted two, not one, so although it was infinitely harder conceiving dc2 we did it because it was definitely what we actively wanted, iyswim.

I would not do it. Two is plenty. It is great to accept what you have.

Sorry should've tagged @IndefatigableMouse on my first post

Hi OP,
In my opinion the only reason to have another in your situation (2 children already, hard road to get them, 40 odd) would be if you (and your family) were desperate to have another. The fact that you are making lists of pros and cons including for example needing to change your car suggests to me that you are not desperate for another.

Let it go and enjoy the new phase of your life when your kids are at school and growing up without going back to sleepless nights, childcare headaches and costs, and splitting your self between children with very different needs and interests.

Tbh, your second post about wanting a mum/daughter relationship is enough to make me say that you shouldn’t do it.

All the talk from posters about wanting this type of relationship/not wanting to sit around the table in years time and feel that someone was missing etc are all ideals. As a rule people don’t think like that. But once you have another you can’t imagine life before it and therefore you can see the imagined regret of ten years time.

And you only have to look at relationships board to see that those kinds of mum and daughter relationships are actually few and far between.

I sympathise with your indecision over your embrio’s though because it’s precisely the reason why I opted not to have IVF at all. Due to secondary infertility we could only have conceived through IVF, and at the time I remember thinking that I wouldn’t want to put myself through multiple cycles, through heartbreak or ending up with no baby and frozen embrio’s at the end and potentialy not being able to afford more treatment either financially or emotionally and then could I destroy the embrio’s? I don’t know, so I decided against IVF completely.

Three years later me and H split up, and I am now so glad that I only ended up a single parent to one rather than two. And years on I wouldn’t want another baby if you paid me.

At your age you are at high risk of either miscarriage or a child with profound disabilities. As you’ve suffered loss already this is something you likely don’t want to contemplate going through again. It’s very easy for someone who has had easy pregnancies to talk down the risk of a high risk pregnancy or a miscarriage because they don’t have the experience.

Off the top of my head I can think of about five people who have made that last ditch attempt to have another baby and who have all ended up having a child with SN, to the extent those babies will never live independent lives. They of course don’t regret them now that they’re here, but most do say that if they knew then what they know now they wouldn’t have done it.

@shallweshantwe2019 Flip a coin. Heads you go for it, tails you don't.

Your immediate gut feeling of relief or disappointment on seeing what's on the coin should help you make the decision.

(Obviously not suggesting you make such an important decision on a coin toss, just that your reaction may help clarify things!)

I've not been in this position. I can see why you would get attached to the embryos. There is a lot of uncertainty which is also complicating your decision and which you cannot control. So, I think that you need to cross out anything that you cannot control on your list (i.e. the what it's). You simply cannot predict the future and you are procrastinating over too many scenarios. Your simple answer is 'do you want another baby (remind yourself of the newborn, crawling, toddling phases and see if you think that you have the desire to repeat it?). Also, tossing a coin can help. See how you feel with the outcome (slightly relieved/accepting/disappointed etc). Sometimes tossing a coin can help as it reduces it to a quick black and white emotional reaction and can help clarify your emotions. I'm not suggesting that you actually put the decision down to a simple coin toss, but that by going through the process of it it may just bring out an emotional response which can help to clarify your feelings.

@justchecking1

Posted at the same time as yours! What a coincidence!

I have 3 kids number 3 we spoke about but never tried and had s lovely surprise. It’s hard work though and I rarely stop.

My kids are 7, nearly 3 and 8 weeks old. The pregnancy was terrible and I was in and out of hospital. Juggling the needs of 3 kids is hard especially with such different age groups and needs. Eldest is in school but has lots going on and needs homework, pick up, drop off etc time. The nearly 3 year old is very sociable and loves his activities and groups. The baby has the demands and care needs you would expect of a young baby.

I am 38 now and felt the pregnancies got harder with age but I adore my boys and feel the youngest just fitted in. However we have great routines around bedtime, boundaries are good, eating and snack times etc which all sounds boring but have been a godsend.

The housework increase and juggling 3 kids is what I find hardest but I am so glad we had him. He really is a joy.

I have just seen the update on wanting a mother/daughter relationship please don’t have a child for that reason.

I have 3 boys and wasn’t bothered what sex they were but would not have had more kids if I was. I have seen mother/daughter relationships and sadly they often come at the expense of the mother/son relationship as the mother is more invested in the relationship with the daughter. My husbands mother is like this and it’s not nice. She also has more investment in her granddaughters to the point she made it clear she wanted our 3rd child to be a girl.

In all honesty, given your age I wouldn’t do it. The reason I say this is because pregnancy was hard on me and this was my late 20s. I couldn’t imagine being pregnant in my 40s.
Add in this the uncertainty of if the embryos would survive the defrost process which I think would add additional stress to your body.

Also, on another side (learnt through Friends tv show) you don’t have 3 hands. Granted your older one is getting to an age where he’ll stop holding hands in the next few years but it’s still something which you need to consider.
Your kids are now at an age where adventure holidays would be good (if your into this) and adding a baby into this could potentially delay this (my friend did go travelling with a newborn so it’s not un-doable)

I think if your husband had said that he would like a 3rd then it would be worth the above but given that he has said he feels complete with the 2 you have

I have 3 DCs. Obviously I love them all to bits, but the 'frazzle factor' as you put it definitely ramped up hugely when we had DC3. Eldest 2 are boys, and DC3 is a girl, who I had at age 36. As you have already realised, a 3rd DC is expensive as so much is set up for families of 4. What I hadn't realised was just how much work the 3rd would be. As it happens, DC3 has autism/PDA, which remained undiagnosed for most of primary school. This means it is hard to separate the effect of a 3rd DC from the effect of having a DC with additional needs. What I can say is that my DD has definitely affected the boys, in that I have less time to spend with them, and this is enhanced because of her autism. It also affected our marriage, as 3 young children, one with autism, was massively stressful. It genuinely nearly broke us and my DH almost walked out several times because he couldn't cope with the stress. We have got through that now; my DD is now in year 8 and still needs a lot of support, but a lot less than she did in years 5 and 6 (which were by far the worst times). Luckily, the boys are fantastic and cause us no issues whatsoever. I am also finding that my own health issues make things harder still and just add to my exhaustion (perimenopause kicked in with a bang 4 years ago, when I was 45, right at the time we were most struggling with DD).

Saying all that, I love having all my DC. And some of the most wonderful things about my DD are in part due to her autism. But I cannot stress enough how hard it is, and how exhausted I am.

Just generally, juggling 3 sets of activities means that I am out ferrying kids about every evening, and as there is no evening bus service where we live. I have late pickups (9 or 10pm) on 3 or 4 evenings a week. We are constantly juggling schedules, pick ups, and do not have any weekday evenings free to just relax without one of us having to go out again later to pick up a DC. In part this is because of the lack of bus service, but it is also cost as the bus (when it runs) is so expensive it is much cheaper to pick them up in the car. And having 3DC means we have to be much more careful with money.

I hope this doesn't sound as if I am being completely negative about having 3DC. I love all my DCs hugely and can't imagine not having any of them. But in making your decision, I wouldn't want you to underestimate how difficult it might be for everyone in your family.

Hi OP

I dont think I would in your shoes...

My own personal opinion is that it sounds like you feel some kind of guilt about 'wasting' the healthy embryos. I havent been through IVF so I'm sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick and I hope I'm not being insensitive. But to me it's a bit like saying every period to a fertile couple is a wasted chance to conceive.

You should have a baby because you want another child, not because you feel some sort of obligation to the embryos.

I think every woman (or a lot of them) feel a bit upset when they realise that that's it and there will be no more babies. I definitely definitely don't want another, but I still feel a bit sad knowing there will be no more baby cuddles, giving away our baby stuff, when my youngest reaches another milestone I feel upset that this will be the last time I teach a toddler to ride a scooter or drink from a big girl cup. Again I dont think that is the reason to have another baby, because one day the new baby will be the last of your children to go to pre school or school and it will still be sad then.

I do think age is a factor as well. The chances of it working are slim and the emotional and physical strain may affect your children.

Also your husband doesnt sound keen and if you're not sure, there is no one in your family that really really wants a baby.

Give it until Christmas without thinking about it and have another discussion then

With the exception of IVF im in a similar position. I have 2 girls - 8 and 2. Never intended to have a big gap but ttc was tricky and I had a mc. I would love a little boy, as would dh. But, we can see the end of £880 per month nursery fees, dd2 gets some hours funded in April. 3 would stretch us financially. 2 is doable. We are comfortable. But. There is that but. I dont feel done. If I won the lottery, id have another baby.

I've just read through some of your updates and in particular that you said you would be tempted to feel relieved if the clinic called and said the embryos was gone speaks volumes to me. I'm a big believer in that kind of mind trick - how would you feel if x happened - being what you actual feel deep down.

I would do what another pp suggested and finalise your decision by having a big clear out of any baby stuff you've been hanging onto "in case."

I think maybe the issue deep down here is that you are hankering after a girl.

If you knew for sure the gender of the frozen embryos (not possible I know) and they were both boys, would you still want to go ahead with it? Likewise if you knew for sure they were girls, would you push all your "against" reasons aside and plough on regardless? Maybe hear lies your answer.

Do you actually want another baby, or do you just want a baby girl?

I know people are saying "be grateful for what you have" and although that's true, it's not always as easy as that. I have had two failed IVF cycles and I'm a similar age to you so I know for sure I'll never be a mum. But, do you know what? I've found acceptance and even joy in that outcome. I have an otherwise amazing life that I'm so grateful for.

When you think about it nearly all of us are living with "what ifs" and at some point you've just got to have a talk with yourself, move on, put a line under it and LIVE.

You've already got some fantastic advice from posters far more qualified than me. I just wanted to remark on one of your comments. The mother) daughter bond that you feel you are missing out on.

I'm female. I'm NC with my mother. She always favoured my brother anyway.
My husband is one of two boys. He is so close to his mum. They have a fantastic relationship.
Right now you're not missing anything, because it's not guaranteed anyway.

(Fwiw, I have two boys, would have loved to have had a third but my DH wouldn't agree, and I always thought I'd have another boy. Don't feel like I'm missing out on having a girl at all).

My third has special needs so obviously different but I’d rather have two looking back. Thinks aren’t geared for five people, cars are rubbish. You’re spread more thinly, holidays etc. Personally I’d stick at two and get a pet.

Sorry if you’ve already answered this OP, but doesn’t two embryos mean potentially two babies?

That's a good point there - what if you had one baby with one embryo? You'd still have the dilemma of the other one.

Having done the whole decision making process and decided to go for a third, I do find it baffling that people use things like 'we would have to get a bigger car' as a factor in these decisions. Of course, wondering if you can emotionally and financially cope with another child is something you 100% need to consider, as are many other things, but to me if something as trivial as needing a new car even makes it onto the cons list then you probably shouldn't do it.

I also think if you are ever having any child to get one of a certain sex then you need to think a bit harder about why you are doing it. I have two boys and everyone assumes I'm having a third because I wanted a girl. It's not true, and if it was then I don't think it would have been fair to get pregnant.

I'm another chiming in with "go for it!" Some people are dead certain that they're done with their two children and absolutely cannot contemplate having a third. For them it's easier. But if you're already pondering it this deeply and have thought about it so much and the embryos are still there, I say try. It's not self indulgent rubbish. (Yes, some people here are rude.) It's a feeling/yearning that cannot be explained to others, and it might be one you live to regret if you don't try. Good luck either way, it's a very tough decision to make and there is clearly no right or wrong answer.

do it. just go for it..

The bigger car thing is part of the affordability question - can you afford to replace an existing car, probably worth more to you than its sale value, run a bigger vehicle with the extra running costs (brakes, tyres, insurance, fuel) etc