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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to ask you who started the Troubles in the North of Ireland?

591 replies

1FineDane · 11/09/2019 13:23

If you watch this new BBC documentary, what is your answer?
I know British people think the IRA started the whole shit, but this is a BBC documentary and fairly unbiased.

I hope you watch it to realise what history there is in Northern Ireland.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0008c47/spotlight-spotlight-on-the-troubles-a-secret-history-episode-1

OP posts:
isabellerossignol · 18/09/2019 03:17

Some Irish people are really stuck in being the victim.

Stuck in being the victim? The last murder in N Ireland related to this happened less than six months ago. The last attempted bomb was less than a fortnight ago. But you want people to stop making a fuss because it hurts your feelings? What's an acceptable time limit for people to be annoyed, since a fortnight seems too long for you? Are we allowed a day? Or just an hour? Or is that just victimhood and a bad attitude?

Do you know whose feelings are hurt? The feelings of every single family who has an empty space in their home where a loved one should be but whose life was cut short.

No one on this thread has said that every English person is to blame. No one. But successive British governments, over centuries, led us to the situation we are in today. Twenty years ago things turned a corner and then three years ago Brexit turned us back into the path of danger. Am I angry at the current UK government and the people who potentially have endangered peace here by voting Brexit? You bet I am. They're not the ones who are going to suffer if the bloodshed starts again.

wheresmymojo · 18/09/2019 03:27

We (Irish) would have been seen as inferior. Odd one

Not just inferior. Irish people were painted as full blown savages so no Englishman would have settled and integrated.

Sorry, don't shoot the messenger! But yes, even in the late 1800's Irish people were considered complete savages. I recently read Friedrich Engels on the 'Conditions of the English Working Class' which was written c. 1844 and the descriptions he made of the Irish immigrants were shocking. I knew of course about the 'No Irish, No Blacks' signs later on but the way the immigrants were discussed by Engels was something else. And it was clearly the accepted way of thinking of them at the time.

wheresmymojo · 18/09/2019 03:30

Quote from the book:

"These people having grown up almost. without civilisation, accustomed from youth to every sort of privation, rough, intemperate, and improvident, bring all their brutal habits with them among a class of the English population which has, in truth, little inducement to cultivate education and morality. Let us hear Thomas Carlyle upon this subject: [5]
"The wild Milesian [6] features, looking false ingenuity, restlessness, unreason, misery, and mockery, salute you on all highways and byways. The English coachman, as he whirls past, lashes the Milesian with his whip, curses him with his tongue; the Milesian is holding out his hat to beg. He is the sorest evil this country has to strive with. In his rags and laughing savagery, he is there to undertake all work that can be done by mere strength of hand and back -- for wages that will purchase him potatoes. He needs only salt for condiment, he lodges to his mind in any pig-hutch or dog-hutch, roosts in outhouses, and wears a suit of tatters, the getting on and off of which is said to be a difficult operation, transacted only in festivals and the high tides of the calendar. The Saxon-man, if he cannot work on these terms, finds no work. The uncivilised Irishman, not by his strength, but by the opposite of strength, drives the Saxon native out, takes possession in his room. There abides he, in his squalor and unreason, in his falsity and drunken violence, as the ready-made nucleus of degradation and disorder. Whoever struggles, swimming with difficulty, may now find an example how the human being can exist not swimming, but sunk.... That the condition of the lower multitude of English labourers approximates more and more to that of the Irish, competing with them in all the markets: that whatsoever labour, to which mere strength with little skill will suffice, is to be done, will be done not at the English price, but at an approximation to the Irish price; at a price superior as yet to the Irish, that is, superior to scarcity of potatoes for thirty weeks yearly; superior, yet hourly, with the arrival of every new steamboat, sinking nearer to an equality with that."
If we except his exaggerated and one-sided condemnation of the Irish national character, Carlyle is perfectly right. These Irishmen who migrate for fourpence to England, on the deck of a steamship on which they are often packed like cattle, insinuate themselves everywhere. The worst dwellings are good enough for them; their clothing causes them little trouble, so long as it holds together by a single thread; shoes they know not; their food consists of potatoes and potatoes only; whatever they earn beyond these needs they spend upon drink. What does such a race want with high wages? The worst quarters of all the large towns are inhabited by Irishmen. Whenever a district is distinguished for especial filth and especial ruinousness, the explorer may safely count upon meeting chiefly those Celtic faces which one recognises at the first glance as different from the Saxon physiognomy of the native, and the singing, aspirate brogue which the true Irishman never loses."

wheresmymojo · 18/09/2019 03:34

Also I would add to Angel that it's a little rich of us to ask our Irish friends to 'move on' when we have people in our Govt threatening them with food shortages and displaying unbelievable levels of arrogance and lack of due care re: the GFA.

This isn't 'history'.

Fatshedra · 18/09/2019 06:57

Apparently Irish migrating to the US were shipped directly to the front lines of the American Civil War. Not sure what side they were fighting on, but that is pretty brutal.

My only gripe with looking back in history today is that you have to take into consideration the society of the time. And not look at it just from an educated, christian based modern perspective. I'm not saying approve but in society people follow the norm the poor Irish had cruel, inhumane treatment for sure.
At the same time that the Irish were shipped to hovels in England, the native americans were being wiped out by incomers of all nationalities. Somehow that was accepted then. Or it was too difficult to stop (a bit like today's environmental catastrophe, we aren't fixing that).
I'm sure life was cruel for all poor people eg Les miserables.
The pakistani and Korean workers in the Middle East today are treated not unlike the Irish in TCarlyles piece. Poor accommodation and pay (relatively, not like it was then) in work camps, few opportunities to return home. But I imagine the Saudi (or whoever) employers feel they are doing them a favour as a bad job is better than none.

DuchessDumbarton · 18/09/2019 08:32

Well said isabellerossignol

DuchessDumbarton · 18/09/2019 08:38

wheresmymojo
"if I had been born on the island of Ireland I'd be more likely to be Republican than not"

The reality is that, for the vast majority of Irish people, in NI and the Republic, the GFA drew a line under the past.
So, it is only in very certain portions of the country (usually economically disadvantaged) that any old resentments linger.
For people like me, whose grandparents fought in the War of Independence, we have let it go.
That is why the imagery of the Queen bowing at the Garden of Remembrance was so powerful.
It was symbolic of letting go.

That's why I dislike the title of this thread....but Brexit has given people reason to revisit old injuries and picked at wounds that hadn't fully healed.

Sakura7 · 18/09/2019 09:54

I have to laugh at angel's suggestion that the Irish have a victim mentality. Talk about pot and kettle!

EmeraldShamrock · 18/09/2019 10:34

I have never heard anyone in Poland say that they hate Germans, or that it is the current Germans fault I work and live around plenty of polish. Lots of polish people hate Germany and Russia.
The cheers from many polish homes when Germany was scored against in the world cup.
Obviously not all polish people I wont generalise.
Though I also know a German gent who feels superior to their Polish neighbour's.

Voila212 · 18/09/2019 10:46

Jesus Angel calm down, I can go on any forum i like. I'm sure the admin would delete my post if they thought 'I was incenting hatred'. I'm not playing any victim, nothing happened to me, I'm only stating facts about the history. Of course there has been a lot of violence throughout the world in history but we are not talking about them, we are talking about Irish history and the Troubles. Why are you taking it so personally? The IRA did terrible things but I don't feel like it's was my fault. I don't take any responsibility for any bomb they set off. This thread seems to be upsetting you very much, so why are you reading it? We are all entitled to our opinion and views. You seem to have taken it very personally and act like we are speaking about every English person. Which no one is, the only person generalizing here is you. You have completely railroaded this thread with your comments. So I will not be replying to anymore of your comments unless they are about the topic.
Honestly after WATCHING last night show, I can't fathom how anyone got either side to agree to the GFA. It really shows how important it is and makes me so mad to see it being belittled over Brexit. How did people live with the constant fear of bombs going off. I could actually feel the tension watching the show so I can't imagine actually living through it.
It was truly a scary time and as the saying goes ' Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it'.

DuchessDumbarton · 18/09/2019 10:50

Viola212
Yes, I think if you know anything about the work that went into the GFA, you have to stand back in admiration for the people involved.
Many of them were people who had either been "terrorists" (both sides) themselves OR had personal experience of violence.

I will say it again; I feel it is sinful to disrespect the sacrifices involved in the GFA and says nothing good about anyone who would wilfully undermine it.

EmeraldShamrock · 18/09/2019 10:51

To add Angel84 although you had a horrible experience living around Irish, I don't know anyone who blames or hates English people today.

EmeraldShamrock · 18/09/2019 10:52

I'll check YouTube for last nights episode.

Voila212 · 18/09/2019 11:03

Oh I agree duchess, even more so now after watching this documentary. I think time can dilute memories and people can forget how bad it really was especially when you never lived through it. I was watching it with the actual feeling of despair because it really must have felt that at times there was no hope of ever having peace.
.

AryaStarkWolf · 18/09/2019 12:46

Watched Ep 1 last night, it was very powerful, it's a real shame though that they didn't find it important enough to air on BBC1 (not just BBC1 NI who surely already have a good idea on the history) I think it would be really informative for British people especially in understanding why people are so worried about the border issue now and Brexit

Yadid · 18/09/2019 13:16

It's also a shame that you can't get BBC player in Ireland.

TBH I didn't even know there was a channel called BBC Four Blush

DioneTheDiabolist · 18/09/2019 13:19

Lots of polish people hate Germany and Russia.
That's been my experience of Polish people too.

Yadid · 18/09/2019 13:22

Just anecdotally on Polish and Ireland, my last boss was Polish. His best friend lives in Ireland and he said she seems to have found her 'home' there. He visits her there and loves Ireland. He loves that there's always live music in pubs and just liked the place generally. So that's two positive Polish/Irish stories.

ethelfleda · 18/09/2019 13:23

My only gripe with looking back in history today is that you have to take into consideration the society of the time. And not look at it just from an educated, christian based modern perspective. I'm not saying approve but in society people follow the norm the poor Irish had cruel, inhumane treatment for sure

That’s kind of the point though IMO. The culture at the time allowed such inhumane and atrocious acts committed against the Irish - so let’s never, ever let the culture head that way again. We can only do that by educating ourselves and not forgetting the past.

I know it is an entirely different subject, but when I was in Kigali a few years ago I visited the genocide museum. It was incredibly powerful and it’s purpose was to make sure that people never forgot about the Rwandan genocide - and in fact, never forgot about ANY genocide. There was a statement to the fact that it’s intention was to educate visitors about the sort of cultural conditions that have to occur in order to spark a genocide, in the hope that an event like that never ever happened again. Which is why we can’t ever forget about it!

Interesting to me was the ‘8 stages of genocide’

  1. Classification- ok, humans classify everything. It’s how we make sense of the world so fine.
  2. Symbolisation - again, fine - many groups around the world would use a symbol of some kind to differentiate between other groups but then...
  3. Dehumanisation - attributing negative traits to the ‘others’ showing prejudice towards those others solely because of the group they belong to, using dehumanising language etc

It is scary just how often we (as a society) reach step three... even within widespread media and even now.

Sorry I have wildly digressed here Blush

Yadid · 18/09/2019 13:28

I haven't gotten around to watching episode 2 yet. Was it good?

angell84 · 18/09/2019 13:59

Racism is so awful everywhere. I do hate what the English did to the Irish in the past. It is horrible. I hate racism everywhere.

But this thread has also made me see that I am still damaged from all the abuse I personally received in Ireland.

again, only sharing, in case it might help some one else, and might help us all stop hating each other.

I hated myself for a long time. I suffer with really low self esteem, from being taunted about being English.

I felt utterly ashamed of being English for a long time. Because I was told that English people were evil. And therefore - I was a bad person

Sometimes, I feel like a big lump of English shit. That I should be hated, solely because I am English.

I have developed a stutter in some circumstances through nerves, because Of the bullying.

When I sit down and think about it, I say to myself - I am actually a really nice person, I have been to volunteer all over the world.

AryaStarkWolf · 18/09/2019 14:15

@angell84 I'm sorry that was your experience of Ireland, unfortunately there are bullies everywhere but I don't think it's a common experience for English people here, we have a huge number of English people living here.

EmeraldShamrock · 18/09/2019 14:30

@angell84
Nobody hates you because you are English, I am sorry some pesky people made you feel that way, don't let those bullies win.

Yadid · 18/09/2019 14:31

Last census, I believe the highest population in Ireland apart from Irish is English people. A lot of those would be maybe retiring here, though a lot live here (particularly financial sector in Dublin).

I'll see if I can pull up the stats.
www.cso.ie/en/csolatestnews/pressreleases/2018pressreleases/pressstatementcensus2016non-irishnationalitieslivinginireland2016/

From that press statement:

UK nationals had the lowest labour force participation rate (59.7%) largely due to a high (19%) proportion of retired people.

Renting was more common than home ownership for all but one of the nationalities profiled, the exception was UK nationals with 62% ownership.

Yadid · 18/09/2019 14:47

Angell, you're conflating you being bullied with the Irish people hating the English. We don't. I'm speaking in general terms, you're speaking in specific terms about your own very personal experiences. Yes, it's awful that you were bullied, but you're continuing to derail and otherwise interesting discussion. I strongly suggest that you start your own thread about how YOU PERSONALLY can get over the bullying you've received, but please try to keep this thread on topic. Thanks.