AIBU to ask you who started the Troubles in the North of Ireland?

[1FineDane]

If you watch this new BBC documentary, what is your answer?
I know British people think the IRA started the whole shit, but this is a BBC documentary and fairly unbiased.

I hope you watch it to realise what history there is in Northern Ireland.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0008c47/spotlight-spotlight-on-the-troubles-a-secret-history-episode-1

YABU - this is mumsnet not kidsnet. Even if it were possible to answer “who started it” it would be pointless. Grow up op.

@duchessdumbarton you said

"without owning the past, and recognising the hurt caused, it's very hard for people to move on."

I disagree.
The current U.K. people have NOTHING to do with the past. Nothing. Many countries were bloodthirsty to each other in the past. As a world, we were bloodthirsty, savage and territorial. In the PAST. People develop, countries develop.

Do the U.K people of the present have to apologise for the actions of the U.K people of the past? No! We DID NOT DO THEM. Many people are not just from one country either.

You also said "To invoke Godwin, I cannot imagine a situation where a German person might say to a group of Jews "plenty of us in Germany have suffered hugely in the past too".

I have Polish family. I am a mixture of English, Irish and Polish , because guess what - a lot of people move around!

I go to Poland every year. Poland was also invaded by the Germans, and thousands of people were raped and murdered. After world war two, Poland was then invaded by Russia. When I am in Poland they talk about world war two and what happened then, and they talk about Russia and what happened after world war two, but I have never heard anyone in Poland say that they hate Germans, or that it is the current Germans fault. And I have never heard them say that they hate the current Russians either. It is kind of seen as " the bad old times".

But as a world - we have moved forward!

Any genuine interest in 'who and why' it started will be answered by reading a book called 'tread softly on my dreams"

@voila212 you said

I understand your point Angel but I do find it quite ironic. A country owned Ireland, they owned us by force for many hundreds of years. They forced Irish people of their land, they made it illegal to speak their national tongue, they made it a crime to follow their own religion. They sent thousands of Irish people to other colonies where they were treated horrifically. They forced farmers to rent the land they once owned and farm it, then they took the wheat they produced. They starved our ancestors, they murdered them. They forced them to emigrate. 1 million starved to death,1 million emigrated alone during the famine,( a period of 5 years)

Yes this happened to Ireland. But this has not only happened to Ireland. Do you only care about Ireland because you happen to live there?

Europeans invaded America, and raped and murdered thousands of people there.

The Germans invaded many countries in Europe and raped and murdered many people in each country, my own great grandfather was Polish and he was killed by the Nazis. Do I hate the current Germans, no I do not! I am able to see that they have no connection to the past, and they are different human beings.

Russians invaded many countries, raped and murdered many people.

.It did not only happen to you! I am sorry but I really think that you need to start to try to get over it

Haven't rtft but I don't think you can say with much accuracy that British people think it was the IRA who started it. That's a massive generalisation of British people's opinions.

That's the interesting thing I guess about the British. They never really integrated. Like they didn't come and settle organically. They came and conquered. And ruled. But never really married into the Irish etc. I think it comes from their superiority complex. We (Irish) would have been seen as inferior. Odd one

My understanding was that, pre-reformation when practically everyone in Europe was Catholic, plantations/invasions in Ireland were largely unsuccessful because people easily assimilated into Irish culture. To be honest, I always liked that. I got images of blood thirsty barbarians trying to invade the Emerald Isle but being dissuaded by the Irish... and aforementioned barbarians just thought ‘ah well, fuck it - they look like they know how to have the craic... let’s join ‘em”

And then things changed wildly after the reformation and Protestantism.

Not saying there's not anti Irish racism at play. But as people have said the reasons are old and complex as are people's opinions on them.

angel nobody is saying the current average English person is to blame. Or even that the average person was to blame at any point. And nobody has mentioned expecting apologies from the average person either.

I’m genuinely sorry you experienced bullying, but neither that nor your hyperbole about blame are relevant to the current problems, nor do they warrant the causes of the troubles to be swept aside and forgotten.

Not to mention that you don’t get to decide on behalf of an entire country which aspects of their history they are allowed to discuss. You ain’t the DofE history curriculum for English schools.

Yes this happened to Ireland. But this has not only happened to Ireland. Do you only care about Ireland because you happen to live there?

This thread is about Ireland

It did not only happen to you! I am sorry but I really think that you need to start to try to get over it

I’m sorry but just because other countries/races/ethnicities have suffered atrocities akin to what has been mentioned here does not give anyone the right to instruct people to ‘simply get over it’
You can forgive but you can never forget. If you forget, it could happen again. We must learn from the past and from our mistakes - acknowledge the hurt Britain caused - learn about it and vow to never repeat it.

@Durgasarrow

You said "In Ireland, Catholics were treated with exceptional brutality. According to the Penal Laws, the Irish were denied the opportunity to read and write, to have priests, to learn basic skills, to own land, or even own a horse worth more than five pounds. These were laws designed to humiliate Catholics and force them to convert--but even when they did, they were challenged regularly to see if their conversion was false. "

And @Voila212

Really - what do you intend to achieve by coming on an English forum, stating how awful the English ancestors were to the Irish ancestors.

Just to get people's backs up? Just to inflame hatred?

Imagine Polish people going on a German forum and saying to them, about all of the awful things that their German ancestors have done to them.

It is never going to go down well, is it?

Angell84- it is naive and ignorant of history to say that that
" The current U.K. people have NOTHING to do with the past "

In Northern Ireland, we are not talking about what happened in 1966 or 1939 or 1916 or 1847 or 1801 etc.

In Northern Ireland, we are talking about events that affect people's lives today.
And, you do understand, don't you, that the people of Northern Ireland are UK citizens?
Ergo, it has everything to do with "current U.K. people".

As for the notion that "we were bloodthirsty, savage and territorial. In the PAST"......... officers of the Police Service of Northern Ireland have had bombs attached to their cars in the last month. That is, citizens of the UK who are serving police officers, have had bombs attached to their cars, this year.

To take umbrage at what I said is to either misunderstand me, or to wilfully twist them.

"People develop, countries develop"..... yes, they do. Absolutely my point. That development has happened under the umbrella of the GFA, and Brexit threatens to throw it backwards.
Not because we "have not got over it" but because these are live issues for people living in Northern Ireland and in the border areas of the Republic of Ireland.

@duchessdumbarton I give up. I really do not care anymore. Some Irish people are really stuck in being the victim.

Atrocities happen everywhere. Again, I have had family murdered by the nazis, and I still do not hate the Germans.

But, hey , I am not filled with hate

Angel you’re coming across as woefully ignorant.

ethel sorry to laugh at what is a serious topic but I now have an image of my friends gran encountering a horde of bloodthirsty barbarians and insisting ‘ye will have something to eat’. And the barbarians quickly realising refusal was futile.

Okaaaay

ethel I really like that image...
Crowds of Mrs Doyles greeting the invading Vikings and Normans with cups of tea and plates of cake

angel as you don’t appear to be equipped for any intelligent discussion, perhaps another tactic may work.

Speaking as an English person, on your assumed English forum, can you please stop trying to personify all that is the stereotype of the arrogant English, and stop trying to shut down any discussion with your ignorant and ridiculous statements.

If anyone is inflaming any hatred it’s you.

TrainspottingWelsh And I've an image of some raven haired, blue-eyed beauty distracting the Barbarians from their pillaging lol....

Angell, to answer your question.

I asked the question on a British forum to see whether the documentary might have changed the minds of some Brits. The Irish already know who started it.

And the only one who sounds full of hatred seems to be you.

Jesus Christ angel, you clearly have no interest in discussing this in a rational way. You keep repeating the same sweeping generalisations about Irish people. You have repeatedly accused Irish posters of 'blaming you' even though nobody has said anything of the sort. You are projecting your issues from your school days onto the Irish people as a whole, which is obviously bloody ridiculous as well as offensive.

To say that nobody should talk about history because it wasn't the current population's fault is so ignorant. It's important to learn about the past so we don't repeat the same mistakes. I desperately wish the British people were given a more balanced perspective on their history as part of their education. Maybe then this Brexit nonsense would never have emerged.

@yadid the British know who started it aswell. Obviously. Why did you think they didn't?

@sakura7 I am not talking about my school days anymore. I am talking about many Irish people spewing hate at the English. I am fed up of it! People HAVE said on this thread about current U.K people that:

ALL current U.K people do not know about the past with Ireland. Of course we know about the past!

Current U.K people need to acknowledge the pain, and make amends.

Words hurt, you should be careful with what you say to people.

As people have said in other places, Brexit seems to be stoking a lot of flames of hate lately

Can we all just stop for a moment. Angel, has brought something important to my attention.

History doesnt matter.
Culture doesnt matter.
Systemic and institutionalised discrimination and violence dont matter.

All that matters is Angel and her experiences.. Sorry for having a discussion about a part of the world that you have never lived in, in a time before you were born Angel. It's obviously very hurtful to you.

I think people want us to 'get over it' because it raises very sticky questions about arms funding, state involvement etc and that can seriously disrupt present day agendas such as invading multiple Middle Eastern countries if the populace underneath has given up.

I'm 37 and pretty sure we did nothing about the Troubles or Irish history in school.

I recently started reading up on it after I realised I didnt know very much (other than one BBC documentary on Bloody Sunday) given all the discussions that kicked off due to the Brexit backstop.

I was appalled when I read a book about the Irish Famine - basically genocide IMO.

Then I read about the way Irish refugees to England during/just after the Famine were treated and portrayed in the English media - appalled again (this would've included my own ancestors who fled the famine).

And then Bloody Sunday too.

Obviously this isn't an IRA apologist post, I would never condone any terrorism that harms people. However I have come away with the feeling that if I had been born on the island of Ireland I'd be more likely to be Republican than not.

That being said...the English establishment didn't treat my English poor working class relatives much better than they treated the Irish side...so it's not so much English v Irish as English Establishment.