To wonder if there are any Leavers who would prefer no Brexit to no deal?

[Bearbehind]

I honestly don’t see where the opportunity to compromise and find a deal can come from now - Johnson has raised the rhetoric too much, so it looks like no deal or no Brexit.

Reading posts from Remainers lately (and I’m a Remainer but don’t really understand this), there’s still an insistence that Leavers don’t all want no deal.

Whilst I agree it wouldn’t have been most people’s first choice, I don’t see any evidence that they’d prefer to avoid it, even if that mean no Brexit

So would any Leavers prefer not leaving to No Deal?

I must tell my Remain voting FIL who left school at 14 and is from an extremely poor background. Who is also in The North.

@AsTheWorldTurns good point, well made

@AsTheWorldTurns good point, well made

Thank you

@bellinisurge. Tell him what?

@Caringcarer
Best to leave with a simple free trade agreement and scrap Withdrawal Agreement that restricts us from moving on.

Huh?

The UK and EU cannot negotiate a free trade agreement, simple or otherwise, until after we have left. We CANNOT leave with a free trade agreement, it doesn't work like that. The Withdrawal Agreement is what will keep things running smoothly for the 2,3,4 years in between us leaving and us implementing a new free trade agreement - you know, the time it will take to negotiate a trade agreement.

I think that's something that gets lost in most debates DontMake

Politicians seem to have stopped saying it, commentators too. We are all being distracted into the politics of personality - and given the dirth of able, strong ones in any political party at the moment, we are reduced to bickering...

@lifecouldbeadream tell him that Remain voters are higher income, higher education southerners

@AsTheWorldTurns

But you haven't addressed the underlying point. Claiming that we cannot "prove" this or that does not mean that everything is "guesswork" or just opinions.

I think we are posting across each other all the time. You seem to think I have said I have an answer... I don't.

I don't think you've given an answer, that's my point! Your standard response, so far, to every piece of economic forecasting, contingency planning, etc, has been not to give a firm position, I agree. Simply, that as it's uncertain, it remains as opinion, unproven whatever. It's sufficient to spread doubt to make someone question the analysis of experts.

I don't even have a firm opinion on most Brexit related things, The only thing I know is that there is no simple answer and arguing on mumsnet is unproductive... hot air, signifying nothing!

I agree with this.

But you haven't addressed the underlying point. Claiming that we cannot "prove" this or that does not mean that everything is "guesswork" or just opinions.

You can prove absolutely nothing about what Brexit will bring, being that it lies in the future, so it's foolish (and indeed dishonest) to compare it to a scientific theory such as gravity or evolution. As you should well know, being a clever, educated Remainer.

Claiming that we cannot "prove" this or that does not mean that everything is "guesswork" or just opinions. such sophistry!

And I asked you to show me ! Show me what information, proofs etc you used to come to your conclusions, your definitie statements. In short, show me whay your guess is better than anyone elses.

Bluntness had some good points - and I did say I wasn't set in my opinions. Stop trying to analyse me and my dishonest debating skills. Convince me! Dare you

@bellinisurge

Well that would be wrong wouldn’t it... FWIW I am also northern, born into an average family and did my degree as a mature student while working Full time.

Clearly I’m not getting my point across well here.

I worry that BoJo and JRM are poster boys for Leave..... and I can’t for the life of me see what they have in common with the larger majority of people who voted leave.

My argument if any would be that generally the better educated you are, the more likely you are to have voted remain. So, if better education means you are more likely to have voted remain, where does that leave us as a nation?

There was a leave voting economist who posted on another thread recently, and it was the most coherent leave argument I’d heard. Far more coherent than any of the policticians have managed.

We’ve ended up in a situation where there’s no obvious way forward.

You can prove absolutely nothing about what Brexit will bring, being that it lies in the future, so it's foolish (and indeed dishonest) to compare it to a scientific theory such as gravity or evolution. As you should well know, being a clever, educated Remainer.

Not dishonest at all. As we both know, you cannot prove what the future will bring. Therefore, it is dishonest to ask for proof. As you would know, being an educated person.

I don't think you've given an answer, that's my point! Your standard response, so far, to every piece of economic forecasting, contingency planning, etc, has been not to give a firm position, I agree. Simply, that as it's uncertain, it remains as opinion, unproven whatever. It's sufficient to spread doubt to make someone question the analysis of experts. But you arfe the one who gave the obvous and well known list of risks being tackled as proof of something!

I just said it was a sensible list... not a proof of any catastrophe! It owuld be a catastrophe if such panning was NOT undertaken!

My standard response has been that neither side has THE answer. Nobody here does. Defintie statements are useless. They cannot be known. Answers to many cannot be had buy anyone prior to Brexit, by law!

And if you think that understanding that no expert can be 100% certain of what will happen is undermining them you are deluded. No expert should clam to know that is what that list of risks if for. To try and have somethng in place to avoid the worst case scenario. That's what they usually are... a kind of real life, role play, to avoid what can be avoided and ameloriate what cannot. They don't foretell anything!

Not dishonest at all. As we both know, you cannot prove what the future will bring. Therefore, it is dishonest to ask for proof. Oh please! I asked you to show me how you were so certain of your statements! You gave me a list of risk factors... you are making my point for me!

And I asked you to show me ! Show me what information, proofs etc you used to come to your conclusions, your definitie statements. In short, show me whay your guess is better than anyone elses.

Ok, I'll ignore every time you use the word "proof", as we both know you are being disingenuous there in asking for it. And I'll ignore it when you use the word "guess", as again, we both know that's dishonest of you.

I have one simple response. Operation Yellowhammer

Ooh! No! You lost me there.

Too many twists in your tautology!

I think it is you making my point for me .

Not dishonest at all. As we both know, you cannot prove what the future will bring. Therefore, it is dishonest to ask for proof. As you would know, being an educated person.

It looks very much to me the point you were making above is that people should accept economic forecasts such as the CBIs in the same way that we accept the theory of gravity, in the sense that neither can be proven. Have I got that wrong?

Have I got that wrong?

Yes, you have.

Operation Yellow hammer? Ye gods!

Like the secret list of possible targets in the event of nuclear war?

Again, risk assessment and preparation... not a foretelling of catastrophe. Stop scaring yourself!

Have I got that wrong? No matter what the intent, that is what was posted!

My point was that you cannot dismiss "economic forecasts such as the CBIs", just because they cannot be proven

No matter what the intent, that is what was posted! No, it wasn't. Do try and keep up

[I] think we should have another referendum based on the current facts rather than the bullshit spewed on both sides.

But it wouldn't be. It would be on the basis of the bullshit spewed on both sides.