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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder if there are any Leavers who would prefer no Brexit to no deal?

202 replies

Bearbehind · 09/09/2019 09:30

I honestly don’t see where the opportunity to compromise and find a deal can come from now - Johnson has raised the rhetoric too much, so it looks like no deal or no Brexit.

Reading posts from Remainers lately (and I’m a Remainer but don’t really understand this), there’s still an insistence that Leavers don’t all want no deal.

Whilst I agree it wouldn’t have been most people’s first choice, I don’t see any evidence that they’d prefer to avoid it, even if that mean no Brexit

So would any Leavers prefer not leaving to No Deal?

OP posts:
TriciaH87 · 09/09/2019 12:12

Would prefer no deal now to be honest EU had their chance enough is enough time to leave.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 09/09/2019 12:13

The first is that if we voted to leave, statements like "we would hold all, the cards", "it would be the easiest deal in history", etc, have been shown to be false. That's not the same as Brexit being damaging. It's just another of the very many lies told!

Our internatonal reputation? I see many non EU countries also disparaging the EU, waiting for BRexit to be real to step in and replace the kind of trade we used to have... e.g the Commonwealth (ignoring the US, as that is equally 'box of frogs') . So I am not sure that will hold true post any Brexit

And it is contrary to many agreements. Surely the point of diplomacy and politicking is that they have to move with the times, the world changes. Being stuck in one immovable position is, as Brexit is still showing us, never a good idea!

To refer to another thread - is the UK as a whole to be 'held to ransom' by one part of the UK? Or is that (to paraphrase a thread on a completely different topic) Woolwoth's Diplomacy - you just pick n mix the bits that suit?

It's a fuck up - on all sides. I can't see a resolution expect for Johnson doing what he seems to have been doing since he took over - committing career suicide and forcing something through! WHatver that is there will be very many unhappy people. Just as there would whatever the outcome.

It's pointless picking out any individual for blame (well, maybe Cameron) - ALL politiicans are culpable in this mess!

user1493759849 · 09/09/2019 12:14

Funny how, with so many 'passionate remainers,' most leavers they know are bigoted, racist, thick, white, working-class, uneducated, thickos in minimum pay, unskilled jobs, (and who lack 'critical thinking skills...')

And ALLLLL the remainers they know are super-intelligent, quick-thinking, highly-educated, middle-class, 'woke,' tolerant, highly-driven, professionals. Hmm

Even one page/25 posts in there are sly digs/undertones of people digging at leavers ... like 'my intelligent, well-educated, well-read, Labour-voting and utterly lovely MIL voted to leave the EU. I was beyond shocked when she told us she voted to leave.'

Yeah, AND? Confused You are easily shocked eh? Can't fathom how a perfectly intelligent, well-read, well-educated person would vote LEAVE. Jesus wept! Confused

FWIW, I voted to leave, and would still vote leave in a heartbeat if there was another referendum tomorrow. And I don't care if we go with no deal. I just want OUT now. I am sick to fucking death of the dilly-dallying about, the delays, and the remainers desperately trying to derail Brexit.

I have never ever known in all my years, such massive resistance against something. Why do people not want to leave the EU? What are they scared of? It's either that people benefit MASSIVELY from being in the EU, or they are shit scared to leave because it's all they know, and they are terrified of being isolated. It's like fucking Stockholm Syndrome! Hmm

Why so DESPERATE to stay, that you try to derail Brexit, and go against the will of over 17 million people?! It's happening. Just deal with it!!!

AtmosClock · 09/09/2019 12:14

Why so DESPERATE to stay, that you try to derail Brexit, and go against the will of over 17 million people?!

Can you not at least see that other people think that remaining a member of the EU is in our national interest? And that leaving will make us poorer. You may not agree with them, but at recognise that is why many people want to stop something they perceive as so damaging.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 09/09/2019 12:17

Can you not at least see that other people think that remaining a member of the EU is in our national interest? Sorry Atmos that is something every Leaver on Mumsnet does know. Remain voters here have always seemed to be the ones throwing round the invectives.

Other internet places the polar opposite happens.

That's what happens when an issue has an almost precisely 50 : 50 opinion split!

AtmosClock · 09/09/2019 12:17

Why do people not want to leave the EU? What are they scared of? It's either that people benefit MASSIVELY from being in the EU, or they are shit scared to leave because it's all they know, and they are terrified of being isolated.

I think you've cracked it! Yes, people are indeed scared of being poorer and isolated. Think that through for a moment.

user1493759849 · 09/09/2019 12:17

No idea why my post was submitted twice! Confused I made an alteration, and then submitted the post at 12.14, but didn't realise the post had also gone on at 12.12. (Sorry...) Blush I will ask for the first to be deleted!

ShatnersWig · 09/09/2019 12:18

user can you explain how you would solve the Irish question please?

user1493759849 · 09/09/2019 12:19

We are NOT going to be alone and isolated @AtmosClock

FFS quit the scaremongering. It's this kind of shit that is causing so much trouble.

Brexit is happening. Sorry and all that.. Confused

user1493759849 · 09/09/2019 12:21

This thread is going the same way as all the others. Anything any leaver says will be shit on, mocked, and laughed at, and the poster accused of being thick, bigoted, uneducated, racist blah blah blah....

Should have known better than to post!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 09/09/2019 12:21

Yes, people are indeed scared of being poorer and isolated. Think that through for a moment. Well, Operation Fear did work both ways!

And change is always scary for some. BUT some of the poorest areas in the UK voted to Leave.

Think on that too!

It really is NOT as simple as someone is right, someone else is wrong.

Both sides have opinions, emotions on Brexit that are incomprehensible to the other side.

AtmosClock · 09/09/2019 12:21

We are NOT going to be alone and isolated

We are going to have less influence in the World. And a no deal will make us poorer.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 09/09/2019 12:23

Should have known better than to post! only here, and othe staunchly Remain forums. There are plenty that do the opposite.

Has anyone found anywhere that has proper measured debates?

I'd be interested in them if you have! I am tired with the partisan postings, the sneering, the refusal to actually debate.

ShatnersWig · 09/09/2019 12:23

user I merely asked a perfectly reasonable question. I'm not mocking you. I would like to know how you would solve the Irish question.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 09/09/2019 12:24

We are going to have less influence in the World. And a no deal will make us poorer. Show me!

Show me the absolute proof of ether of those 2 statements in the short, medium and long term.

Go get your crystal ball and show me! You CANNOT know. Nobody can!

Crass12 · 09/09/2019 12:24

No, I want out and sick of MPs trying to sabotage it

user1493759849 · 09/09/2019 12:26

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Well said. It's impossible to debate about Brexit on here. As I said I should not have wasted my time!

TabbyMumz · 09/09/2019 12:26

"We are going to have less influence in the World."
Why on earth do you think that?

ShatnersWig · 09/09/2019 12:27

Curious I'm trying to have a debate. What is the solution to the Irish question?

You mention Operation Fear/Project Fear. Even that doesn't make sense, does it? Apparently "no deal" is an awful thing and the threat of it should make the EU renegotiate. Yet at the same time, we're not supposed to fear "no deal" in this country and anything anti no-deal is Project Fear and scaremongering. Which is it, a scary thing or not a scary thing? If it's, as we are told, not a scary thing, why would the EU "back down"?

AtmosClock · 09/09/2019 12:27

Both sides have opinions, emotions on Brexit that are incomprehensible to the other side.

While I agree so much of this is driven by emotions, a great deal of this is also driven by facts and logic.

Take the idea of no deal Brexit. How do you think putting up trade barriers with our biggest trade barriers is going to make us better off? Is there an answer to that?

ShatnersWig · 09/09/2019 12:28

user But I am trying to debate with you. The Irish question, which is really the most fundamental issue - how do we ensure the GFA is upheld, that no hard border is reinstated and we don't return the days of terrorism not just on the island of Ireland but here on the mainland?

I'm not having a go, I am genuinely interested in what you thing should be done about this. Let's debate the options.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 09/09/2019 12:29

Shatner I have a solution, but it involves time travel and selective culling of indicuals, politicians, military men etc.

A modern day solution could only involve a lot of knocking heads together.

And even then it wouldn't go away. It has become both an innate charactersitic and an excuse for all ills. And Irish people on both sides of the border deserve better... better than what they have had, what they have now and better than what they will have!

Short version: there proably is NO solution. Unless the women of Belfast get politically active again, perhaps.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 09/09/2019 12:31

Shatner we cross posted. My point is that, however we may have voted, I am agreeing with you! There is no logic left in Brexit. Too many people, politiicans, poster alike, have mangled all sense out of existence!

Milkywayfan · 09/09/2019 12:31

My take on leavers I know as a Remainer

  • having a lot of doubts but don’t want to look like idiots. We want to be supportive - world has changed and we have more knowledge and give them a chance to change their mind
  • lot doubling down (loudly or quietly) like user1493759849. Key themes 1)- just want out (refusing to engage with will be negotiations for 10 years after from a terrible position); 2) NI (either not a problem or don’t care or don’t give in to the ira / essentially either don’t believe it or don’t care providing the bombs aren’t in their garden 3) EU countries in trouble - So presumably China and Russia all fine and nicer to deal with than Germany - and distance is now irrelevant 4) short term logistics and food and medical issues - all experts wrong / corrupt remainers (including all the doctors

Friendly wave to thoughtful leavers and those reconsidering

user1493759849 - looking forward to your specific answers on points 1-4. My usual question is how much risk are you personally prepared to take

AtmosClock · 09/09/2019 12:32

We are going to have (1) less influence in the World. And (2) a no deal will make us poorer. Show me!

Ok

  1. This is simple geopolitics. We are currently a member of the EU, one of the major trading blocks of the world economy. As a member, we have influence on that body. Other countries, such as the US, value our relationship, in part, because we have a big say in that powerful body. If we leave that body, we will have less influence

  2. There is no way on earth that we become wealthier by putting up trading barriers with our biggest trading barrier. Imagine, your local supermarket increases its prices by 10%. Will you be better off, or less well off? You could go to another supermarket, further away, but they have higher prices. Thus, we become poorer.