To wonder if there are any Leavers who would prefer no Brexit to no deal?

[Bearbehind]

I honestly don’t see where the opportunity to compromise and find a deal can come from now - Johnson has raised the rhetoric too much, so it looks like no deal or no Brexit.

Reading posts from Remainers lately (and I’m a Remainer but don’t really understand this), there’s still an insistence that Leavers don’t all want no deal.

Whilst I agree it wouldn’t have been most people’s first choice, I don’t see any evidence that they’d prefer to avoid it, even if that mean no Brexit

So would any Leavers prefer not leaving to No Deal?

Curious The backstop is supposedly the last resort and only stays in place IF the UK and EU can't sort it out in the two year transition period (as part of the deal). If they can't, it stays in place beyond the two years until, say, technology really IS in place to accommodate it.

Personally, I think peace is pretty important in all of this.

My usual question is how much risk are you personally prepared to take But the only answer to that is what erisks, specifially?

Many people are risk takers, other are risk averse. About 50 : 50 in the UK it seems!

A Leaver can no more accurately evaluate those risks than a Remainer can!

Nice bit of scaremongering and propaganda there @AtmosClock 👍

@user1493759849

Unless you have a coherent response to logical arguments, I will assume that you calling it "scaremongering" is the evidence that you don't have a logical response.

Curious Yes, we did cross post!

With a 52/48 result, things were very close. The obvious solution was a Soft Brexit that accepted the result but kept reasonably close ties. We were never going to get the same things as we had if we're no longer in the club and those who said we would were irresponsible and, quite frankly, liars. Yes, the May deal isn't perfect but nothing was going to be because there are too many issues involved. And it was merely a deal about how we leave - all the rest was still to be negotiated. A lot of people seem to think the May deal was it. It was merely the start. I'd rather have just got on with May's deal, I think, accepted the backstop to ensure peace, and proceeded from there. Because compromise and peace.

@AtmosClock

Yep that's the response I expected from you.

And curiousabout
Agree with the no sensible debate
My guess is two reasons

• brexit has come at same time as / ? Partly caused by the end of the belief in fact or expertise. If people deeply believe as they clearly do that their views on medical logistics are as valid or better than the royal college of physicians or they know more about food supply chains than the British retail consortium or the former head of Sainsbury’s (see also cars) it is impossible to have a sensible debate. If people assume every expert with a fact they dislike is biased and all part of an establishment out to get them than debate becomes impossible.

Newton theory means if you jump out a 24 floor block you go splat. If people’s belief (not yours ) is this just one possible prediction unless you actually do it - it is hard to move forward The only respectable argument for brexit is it will be hugely disruptive to the economy, the existence of the UK and will mean a lot of sacrifices - and it might be ok in 25 years. And this is worth it for a particular view of sovereignty (this probably wouldn’t have won a referendum!

user I find it interesting to say people can't debate on this, but when asked, politely, to debate, you won't and you ignore the opportunity.

Yep that's the response I expected from you

LOL! At least you have the courage to admit you don't have a coherent response.

Shatner I get that. not being stupid, or having my eyes and ears closed. I really do.

But I don't get the arguments against the technology, they seem to devolve into Shengen or CETA. Nobody wants to say "Well, we'll just do it, trail blaze and agree on some simple issues to begin"
Those against want to take a century or so to imagine every possible permutation of trangresssion... never happened anywhere else, in any other political issue!

As for peace... well, change might break it, stalemate may also break it. At the moment uncertainty seems to be cracking it, it was shaky before Brexit, so it isn't fully achieved anyway! See my last post - I don't think that it ever will be. Not whilst there are still corrupt individuals who don't want it to hold!

I would probably have agreed with that last post Shatner but at the moment I am stuck between "Blow it all up" and "I am going to bed, wake me up when it is all over"

At least you have the courage to admit you don't have a coherent response.. Do be aware that you have NOT responded to my posts - yet!

Pots and kettles, and all that!

The whole language around 'no deal' is so misleading, especially all the 'crashing out' business.

'no deal' is just WTO which is how most of the works trades, we don't have a 'deal' with China or the US either but we still trade with them.

Of course if the EU is willing to eventually do a mutually beneficial deal with the UK, as it has with Canada recently then great, happy days for everyone. But the big difference between any of the other deals the EU has done with any other country is they haven't demanded a huge chunk of that country's sovereignty (ie to make deals elsewhere) in return. That was the main problem with May's deal, not the backstop.

I believe there will be a trade deal one day with the EU but we're in a much stronger place to negotiate from the outside than whilst we're still in.

Our country's democracy is hanging by a thread at the moment due to the absolutely disgraceful behaviour of a few hundred remain MPs who have repeatedly said they would enact the referendum result but are now actively blocking it.

The only way forward is to leave on the 31st October, I believe we will, and 100 percent believe we should.

The only respectable argument for brexit is it will be hugely disruptive to the economy, the existence of the UK and will mean a lot of sacrifices - and it might be ok in 25 years. And this is worth it for a particular view of sovereignty (this probably wouldn’t have won a referendum! Yep! Though the sovreignty thing is/was weird! I saw a really good meme about it this morning, posted by a Leaver, and wholly accepted by a Remainer. Confused both of them!

O'll see if I can find it...

I would prefer no deal to no brexit. What do you think will happen if we cancel brexit? Do you think the EU will welcome us back with open arms? Nope they will make it an absolute hell for us to trade, to do anything. So we may as well just leave.

*world not works

Do be aware that you have NOT responded to my posts - yet!

I think you made two points. The first was why we become poorer if we have no deal. I think I explained that. The second point you made was whether we could replace trade from the EU with trade with the commonwealth.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/02/23/why-distance-matters-in-trade/

This answers those questions. The main problem is that places like Australia, Kenya, and India are a long way away. It is easier to trade with close neighbours. That is why it will be more difficult to replace EU trade with trade with the Commonwealth.

Someone will tell you Choc that a court has said they can't be nasty... so it won't happen! I gave up on that discussion a few months ago! It was impossible to find words that A N Other poster assigned the same meaning to as I did when I typed them.

As I said, logic has flown...

To return to the OP's question - there are clearly some MPs who feel this way and that may prove to be the significant factor unless we have another referendum or two or an election.

So true “CuriousaboutSamphire” what’s scary is our own politicians are leading us into a world where we will be at the EUs mercy. Because their too selfish to vote.

'no deal' is just WTO which is how most of the world trades

No, most trade is under preferential deals.

Of course if the EU is willing to eventually do a mutually beneficial deal with the UK, as it has with Canada recently then great, happy days for everyone.

I’m sure you already know this because Leavers always insist they are really well-informed non-racists, but Canada’s deal with the EU is irrelevant because it doesn’t include access to the single market for financial services. And I’m sure you know why the UK needs that.

What I find most sad about all of this is that we, the elctorate as a whole, probably won't do anything to demand change!

My best thought so far, for a GE, is to vote for a local, single issue candidate... if there is one to be found round here!

I would prefer no deal to no brexit. What do you think will happen if we cancel brexit? Do you think the EU will welcome us back with open arms? Nope they will make it an absolute hell for us to trade, to do anything. So we may as well just leave.

What on Earth makes you say this? You think if we revoked Article 50 and remained in the EU, the EU would stop us from trading?

I’m sure you already know this because Leavers always insist they are really well-informed non-racists Not on MN they don't. They tend not to post much at all. It is staunchly Remain! Round here it is Remainers who are the best informed, most right and nicest of voters.

AGain.. does anyne kow ANY forum with a balanced discussion about Brexit? Or are they all very one sided?