To think this is the end of the Tories

[SirJamesTalbotAndHisSpeculum]

…..as we know them.

None of them can agree with one another. It seems that there will be utter chaos when the Election is called as their Manifesto will be impossible to write.

Conservative Party seems determined to be the new UKIP & are doing a good job of it too

Also, I'm not going to find the sources, but I am fairly sure it is well-known that people tend to vote conservative in times of crisis.

The source was that well-known psephologist, Tony Blair, who said that "an election in which a traditional left wing party meets a traditional right wing party ends in the traditional result". When asked whether he meant a Conservative win, he replied, "Yes, that's what happens".

TB was wrong about so many things but he undeniably knew a thing or two about how to attract voters and how to win elections.

well that should be ENGIP really as it seems no one in Tory Party or any of the Brexit supporters I've talked to give any fucks at all about Scotland or NI or the union of nations that forms the UK.

Hard Brexit seems very much to be about England alone and every one else can go get fucked. So isolationist, so dreadful.

I think the next electoral cycle (assuming 3-5 years) will kill off whoever wins.

If its the tories and project fear is even 50% accurate, they'll have nowhere to hide. Its all very well saying there will be benefits in 50 years a la JRM, but very very few people will wait that long. They will own any delays, shortages, recessions and benefit cuts.

If labour win, whatever they do with Brexit will be wrong. If there's a second referendum and leave win, all the consequences will be blamed on a "bad labour" brexit rather than flowing from brexit itself. This will give an open door for a conservative government next time bringing in austerity on steroids.

If remain win, there will be howling disenfranchised brexiteers undermining anything labour tries to do and going all out in 2022. A labour government might postpone the day of reckoning, but it will come eventually.

The source was that well-known psephologist, Tony Blair, who said that "an election in which a traditional left wing party meets a traditional right wing party ends in the traditional result". When asked whether he meant a Conservative win, he replied, "Yes, that's what happens"

No, it wasn't Tony Blair. I learned this at university before TB was even a PM contender and indeed even before Major had ousted Thatcher. It wasn't in the popular literature but in the political science literature.

Thank you, YetAnotherSpartacus, useful to know. I'd heard it the first time ever when TB said it in 2005, hence my post.

SingingLily - I wish I could think of the source. I can't and times have moved on so maybe it has even been disproven. But I think I was/the source was saying something different to Blair and this is that when voters feel edgy or scared in times of crisis (war, uncertainty, financial recession, alien invasion, etc.) they (or at least swinging voters) tend to vote conservative rather than left. I have also read that this is why a "good war" tends to win votes for conservative parties. My honest feeling is that the Tories will win out of Brexit because many voters will say "well I don't agree, but I'll vote Tory anyway". And, although I am a JC supporter in many ways (not others) I honestly think he is the worst leader for the Labour Party to have at this time because he represents the extreme left, not just the left.

Oh, we need a referendum on the EU, and this time the Remain side needs to make it very clear and spread it far and wide exactly how dishonest and manipulative the previous Leave campaign was (part of the problem last time was that the Remain side were lazy and apathetic and underestimated the vicious determination of the Brexiteers.)
Because the whole point of 'getting us out of Europe' is to enable that tiny group of extremely wealthy and completely unscrupulous white male supremacists who have been manipulating the economy for decades to make themselves even richer at the expense of the public.
The truth coming out should ensure that only racist wingnuts and flag-shaggers, and deluded fantasists, vote leave - and hopefully there are few enough of them that they can be safely ignored.

@Bookworm4

I have always supported labour and been a party member for years

I have not supported labour (or been a party member) since momentum took control

If I wanted to vote for a left wing rather than centre left party (which Labour is or should be) I would vote for the Socialist Labour Party which is momentums/Corbyn/McDonnell true home but they would never have any power Corbyn would never have be an MP should he be a party member and stood for them

And unsurprisingly many supporters of SLP are anti EU as many on the left are so Corbyns stance of providing no opposition to leaving or an alternative is hardly a surprise

I sympathise with your position, Spartacus. Although emphatically not a Labour supporter myself, I've always thought the only way to keep a government honest and transparent is to have a strong and credible government-in-waiting sitting on the Opposition benches. JC fails miserably on that count alone and it allowed Theresa May to continually deceive the country about the whole negotiation process.

A better-led Labour Party would benefit all of us, regardless of our political affiliation.

On an aside, this has been a remarkably good-humoured thread where posters have been able to exchange views without anyone - so far - taking lumps out of anyone else for holding different views. May it continue.

Thank you to SirJamesTalbot for giving us the opportunity.

This is the problem with party political systems....get everyone together and then try to pretend that all of your lot agree with each other (they don't) and that your policies are totally different from the other lot (they aren't).

All bollocks.

Why the hell are they asking BJ questions about his previous splutterings?

STICK TO THE SUBJECT YOU TWATS!!!

Sorry, I tuned into the parliamentary debate and ye gods, but they STILL are not focussing on the most immediate issues!

ReanimatedSGB - one could argue that the whole point of getting us in to Europe in the first place was simply to aid "big business". Hence why JC and his ilk are anti-EU.

By the way, your posts sound fanatical and hysterical: in fact just the sort of stuff that puts people off voting Labour. The public by and large are moderate .

Oops, I missed Reanimated's post.

There's always one, isn't there?

The public by and large are conservative with a small c, and pay very little attention to politics. A lot of the people of my acquaintance are quite proud of never listening to the mainstream news, preferring to pick up the soundbites from social media feeds - without pausing to wonder who put it there. Hence when the Leave campaign made a lot of noise, that's the one they heard. Cameron & co couldn't realistically make much of an answer, as they had been using the EU for a scapegoat for decades. They could hardly turn round and say "You know all that stuff we were telling you was Europe's fault? Well - we lied. Now trust us and vote the way we tell you to."

SGB I thought I'd just mention, I love you and I want to have your babies. Never mind that I'm too old and straight and swore off romance years ago. Exceptions can be made.

Oh and SirJames, I'm totally with you on the puppy. Not only a cute little doggy but a rescued one to boot. What a lovely fellow. Have to vote for him now. Argh!

The sacking of groups of moderates in a party who ask perfectly reasonable questions (or even the awkward buggers in a party) is takeover 101 and bloody scary for any electorate. Ken Clarke is right it’s not really the Conservatives any more. I don’t even vote Tory, but it really worries me that politics in the two main parties is being drawn to polarised ideological extremes as the only option for voters.

When Conservative-voting, middle-aged people like me in boroughs such as Richmond-upon-Thames are adamant that they will not vote for the snake pit that is the current cabinet, then you know there has been a seismic shift. I would literally vote anything rather than BJ and his cronies. I don’t trust them, plain and simple. They don’t represent my views as a Conservative remainder. They are like a band of deluded, over-privileged, fringe lunatics and bullies as far as I’m concerned.

It really has come to something when people like me would rather vote for JC than the current Tories. Even though he would financially cripple us with his mansion tax, VAT on school fees and god knows what else, there is no way we can support a No Deal and the disingenuous, racist and LYING underbelly that belies the policies of this government.

I do not believe that the majority in the UK wouid want a No Deal if given the option. I’m sick to the back teeth of hearing them witter on about the “will of the people.” Who on their right mind would have voted for this shambles if they could have foreseen it?

I will be voting LD anyway out of principle and good luck to them.

aqua - do you think your position is true for a majority or even significant number of conservative voters though? And will you/they hold true to this once the heat of the moment has quelled a little?

“The people who claim to be a Labour supporters but don’t like Corbyn, you are voting for the party not a personality”

This. We live in a parliamentary democracy, not a presidency!

@YetAnotherSpartacus
I know I will - I've stated so up thread.

As PP have pointed out. JC and JMcD are figureheads for the direction and policies of the party. People see JC as a poor leader of the opposition with a raft of policies that seem retrograde. So I think it is a bit daft to suggest that people should ignore the fact that they don’t like him.

We are well aware we are not voting for a president

But the party has changed I could see that from the party member emails I received since Corbyn took over the ideas of the people who now have control over labour are not centre left but left and having heard/read many interviews with Corbyn/McDonnell and those that are senior in momentum they are not in line with the ideas I have always voted for and supported

Plus a woefully poor and terribly inadequate leader

“People see JC as a poor leader of the opposition with a raft of policies that seem retrograde.”

I think he’s a poor leader of the opposition -although he looked bloody brilliant compared to the PM today. But for the life of me, I can’t see how anyone could object to the policies in Labour’s last manifesto.

@BertrandRussell but as previous posters have explained , JC as leader has changed what many labour voters believe the party represents as he is so hard left.. he is more in line with the labour socialist party which is where he should bigger off to. Yes we vote for parties I agree, but in cases like this the leader has completely changed what the party used to represent.