I'm wondering what boris is meant to do?

[hellenbackagen]

The referendum result was leave .

The EU will not renegotiate but parliament wouldn't back the only deal available.

Now they won't back leaving at all.

The result was leave. Johnson promised to deliver that result.

So what now ?
There is No solution to this fuck up is there?

I know mn is primarily anti leave but for me the result was what it was and should be honoured. How many bites of the cherry should people get?

And not one party agrees with anything anyway. The EU will NOT negotiate so what are the options that the rebel MPs would like ?
Ignore the vote and pretend it didn't happen?

I am so sick of Brexit. David Cameron should be put in the stocks....

Can you honestly see Johnson sitting down with the opposition @angell84? He won’t even sit down with his own MPs, he just kicks them out if they disagree with him. Weren’t you the poster who tried to tell us the US doesn’t have an opposition the other day?

Well that's the way it works.
The lib dems would prefer a different system.
However you look at it at the moment it is what it is.
I know who I will vote for in the GE because she has bothered to knock on my door and ask my opinion on issues I am concerned about.
She has answered my questions in an informed and intelligent manner . Dh has researched how she has voted on all major issues in parliament and we have seen first hand how she has raised issues which are important to us in parliament so we will both vote for her.
If another mp bothers to take the time to knock on my door, ask for my concerns and gives me intelligent answers then I may consider voting for them, after researching exactly how they have previously voted in parliament.
I have encouraged dcs to do the same and im very proud that when certain mps are mentioned dd1 might say. Oh they voted against allowing x which is an issue I firmly believe in.
It's about doing your reasearch, not believing everything you see in the press
Look at actions, not words.

The FTPA means the PM can potentially advise the Queen to change the date of a GE walkingdeadgirl. Meaning it could be delayed past 31st October. Thus it's an entirely logical move by the opposition parties, whether you agree with their views on Brexit or not. This is precisely what I meant about being credulous.

@smile I am from the UK. I have been abroad a lot , and people are talking about Brexit all around Europe.

"You seem in touch with the people". Maybe try and contribute to the conversation, instead of sounding like a sarcastic snob

angell84 care to tell us how you voted in the referendum.

Another point - it is absolutely unbelievable that we have a house of lords. How strange and archaic, and undemocratic.

The longer that I was away from the U.K. the more I see how undemocratic and elitist the system is.

I always say to people: question the system.Just because it has been done a certain way , does not mean it Has to be always be that way. And these people in Government are no better than you. You know what is best for yourself. Never forget your own power

angel we had a referendum about changing our political system to PR in 2011 and it was voted against.

The US also has two houses. Checks and balances are democratic, not strange and archaic.

I'm struggling a bit with trying to explain this so I'll try it this way.

You apply for a job for which you believe you are well qualified and experienced and believe is the ideal job for you. You don't get it. You get pipped at the post and another candidate gets it.
They are ecstatic and cannot help but run it in your face at every opportunity. Bullying you in fact by calling you names and using sexist phrases. They laugh at you and relish in their new important role.

One day, they make a huge cock up. It results in other employees leaving whilst this person screams at them to "fuck off , you are not welcome here! Take your stuff and get out!" They do so and vow never to work for that person again.

Realising their huge mistake, they try to blame it all on you, telling anyone who will listen that "It's all xs fault, they are useless!" Yet you have not caused the cock up, they have.

Do you now understand.

It is not the job of the person who did not get the job to sort out the cockup.

The person who is employed to sort it out needs to find a way of doing that.
The other option is to resign.

And once again, I sincerely hope all opposition mps tell BJ to get fucked.
I fear this is the only way to remove him from power.
The public will have to face what is coming to them.
They are too blind to see it until we hit rock bottom.

AV is pretty crap though. I'm in favour of PR on balance, and more so now given that the much touted benefit of FPTP, stable majoritarian governments, appears to have evaporated. But not really AV. I don't understand why the Lib Dems went for that.

I think that is a stupid thing to say - let the Tories sort this out
I think you will find that labour voted FOR the referendum, voted FOR triggering A50, put LEAVING the EU in their last Manifesto.

Labour actively participated in Brexit so it is as much their responsibility as every other MP to 'sort this out'.

Its not even a matter of letting the Tories sort this out because Labour are working to make sure its NOT sorted out. So any mess is actually of Corbyns creation.

If we get a 'no deal' Brexit on the 31st of Oct it will be equally on Corbyns head because he had the option of a peoples election to stop it, and has chosen not to.

There’s no such thing as a people’s election. I suspect you know precisely why Corbyn hasn’t fallen into Johnson and Cummings’ clumsy trap @Walkingdeadfangirl. David Cameron kicked this mess off to placate the extremists in his party. Absolutely let them clear their own mess up. Except they can’t.

The US also has two houses. Checks and balances are democratic, not strange and archaic.

The House of Lords is far from a democratic institution. What is needed is a fully electorally accountable Head of State and Upper House, elected on the basis of the distinct purpose of that house, and on a different electoral cycle to that of the Commons.

Having watched this thread, I'm fully in agreement with Angel's overall assessment of the UK constitution. It's anachronistic, it's nepotistic, it's anti-meritocratic, and it's anti-democratic. Actually, it's positively antediluvian. I don't necessarily believe that the whole mess is fully attributable to the longstanding divides within the Tory party on Europe, or even to David Cameron for taking the country to the polls on a whim, or May and Johnson for continuing the debacle. They were to a large part responsible. But not fully. The true fault lies with a system that has allowed for such a situation to arise in the first place, and then allowed parliament its prorogation in an effort to close down the window for resolving an issue that will change this country forever and affect every one of the citizens living in it.

The question of 'democracy' barely comes into it. The UK effectively masquerades as such a society, but when held up to scrutiny it's clear we are a long way wide of the mark.

A lot of these views are informed by the fact that I've been a republican since my teens: a stance informed by many of the issues above. But if anything has demonstrated in glorious technicolour what the flaws with the UK constitution are, and why it's a system that has long been unfit for purpose, the last few weeks have effectively done that.

What a mess.

NB. A question I often ask remainers is this: I fully understand they have problems with a lack of democratic accountability in the EU. This is a concern I share.

But not one of them has ever satisfactorily responded to this pertinent point: why do they not have issues with the similar lack of accountability emanating from within our own borders?

The dinosaurs in the Lords don't provide sufficient checks and balances, as a PP claims above. They can veto the will of Parliament three times, then parliament can shove their own will through regardless. Add to that little mix is the fact that most UK citizens no longer respect or trust their politicians. What does this mean for them? Remove the EU and you remove certain other checks and balances that prevent the megalomaniacs in our ruling echelons from acting with complete impunity.

How do we address that particular dilemma?

Labour actively participated in Brexit so it is as much their responsibility as every other MP to 'sort this out'.

If we get a 'no deal' Brexit on the 31st of Oct it will be equally on Corbyns head because he had the option of a peoples election to stop it, and has chosen not to.

No, on both points. It will not be equally on Corbyn's head, because the utterly untrustworthy Johnson has behaved in a way that has made it impossible to trust him with powers that would allow him to delay a GE beyond 31/10/19. This means Corbyn simply couldn't permit a GE yet.

And secondly, the Tories bear more responsibility because it was their manifesto promise. Labour certainly have been involved, as they voted to trigger Article 50 and then various choices thereafter, but the culpability is less because they didn't start it. If they'd won in 2015, none of this would have happened. The Tories shat the bed and both of them have rolled around in it, but the one who curled one out all over the sheet in the first place was Cameron.

And I don't even like Corbyn.

@alsohuman It is not the fact that the House of Lords do checks and balances that make them strange.

What makes the House of Lords undemocratic is that:

It's members are not ELECTED. They are appointed. And they are appointed only from the upper class.

It is the most bizarre, undemocratic thing that I have ever heard of.

I suspect you know precisely why Corbyn hasn’t fallen into Johnson and Cummings’ clumsy trap @Alsohuman**

Yes I do, he was forced into avoiding an election by other members of his party who knew he would lose it. Corbyn is quite happy with Brexit, he has hated the EU his whole life but as soon as he became leader his principles went out the window. Power corrupts.

Thank you for your well thought out contribution @marielvanarklestinks

We should have an elected Senate in this country, not a house of Lords - which are not elected by the Public, and only let rich upper class people join.

So, you have a group of wealthy elite, that the public did not elect, effectively ruling many of the country's matters.

In what kind of democratic nation is that okay?

Your all boring.
Vote was to leave, morons can't understand basic binary.

If you tell Lord Blunkett he’s rich and upper class, I suspect he’d tell you to fuck off. Most members of the Lords are elevated from the Commons so have been democratically elected numerous times.

You’re being disingenuous @Walkingdeadfangirl, so I won’t bother pointing out what you already know. It would be a waste of time.

Your all boring.
Vote was to leave, morons can't understand basic binary.

Beautiful haiku.

Vote was to leave not leave with no deal.

For the first time I can properly understand the second world war. Back at the start of this decade the EU was not really talked about (certainly not at the start of the century) then suddenly we have gone from wanting to leave to wanting to leave without a deal. Its amazing how the right propaganda can make you believe you want something

At no point was no deal talked about in the referendum and suddenly everyone wants it

And i get that the EU was getting to bureaucratic and I get that we were never properly in so I can see why it was a potentially an unhappy marriage for some (although personally a lot of the blame lies at the feet of our Government(s) who has mismanaged a lot of the stuff coming through) so can get why a well thought out divorce might be appealing.

But we seem to be going nuclear as if we need to flee to a refuge and that somehow all the hardship that we will face is worth it to get out. But is it? Can someone really explain to me how leaving with no deal makes sense and seems to be what a large proportion of the public wants.

Mariel do you mean remainers at it seems to be a question for leavers

Juells

Just caught a minute of Dominic Raab on Sky, he mentioned 'Corbyn's Surrender Bill'”

Raab is a nasty piece of work. A pure ideologue, so much more so than BoZo who sways in the wind. I’m very concerned that when BoZo is cast aside by the ERG, as he will be, Raab will (goose) step into his post and then we’ll seriously be in deep doodoo.