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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think Angel was a bit of a skeaze?

255 replies

herculepoirot2 · 03/09/2019 15:20

Am frittering away my afternoon re-watching Buffy, which I used to love. And as I’m watching, I’m realising that I am seeing a man who is 250 years old climbing in the window of a 16 year old girl in the middle of the night, and I’m thinking that’s pretty grim. She has teddy bears on her bed.

OP posts:
LeahWarburton · 04/09/2019 22:45

To all those who said they preferred Spike, or Giles, to Angel...Thank You. You clearly all have good taste. And I agree about Spike choosing to get his soul back, as opposed to being cursed with one. Although I always felt Spike always had a connection to his soul - even at his worst.

LeahWarburton · 04/09/2019 23:23

Wow, Icantreachthepretzels. That's incredibly detailed, and well thought out. And you make some very valid points. And i agree with everything you said.

Icantreachthepretzels · 04/09/2019 23:28

Wow, Icantreachthepretzels. That's incredibly detailed, and well thought out.

That's a polite way of saying 'get a life' isn't it? Grin

LyraParry · 05/09/2019 00:04

My real problem with willow is that she utterly fails to make any meaningful amends to the people she harmed or to take any real responsibility for her own actions. She was "saved" from the brink by Xander's love for her - he was her knight in shining armour, which is obviously problematic from a feminist perspective. The show excuses her murderous actions because of her grief over Tara, but she was clearly an abusive partner in that relationship. She doesn't seem to show very much remorse - her return to the Scooby gang seems to be about her own feelings (shame) rather than any real desire to make up for the pain she caused. Then contrast that with the anger that buffy and faith are subjected to when they fall from grace (from willow herself) and I have little sympathy with her "but I couldn't help it" argument.

I actually think faith is one of the best characters across the two shows. She is fundamentally flawed, addresses those flaws and seeks to redeem herself - first through accepting punishment and then through taking responsibility to use her powers for good. She is also groomed (albeit in a non sexual manner) by the mayor. She shows a depth and humanity which is lacking in most of the major characters.

As for buffy herself, I found her likeable when I first watched it, insufferable in my 20s and now (age 34) I feel pity. She went off the rails in her teen years (not unusual) and felt responsible for the break up of her parents marriage. She was forced to move schools and then picked on by the popular kids and the principal. Her father pretty much abandoned her at this point, and her mother made it clear she would pick an abusive man over her own daughter. Her (much) older boyfriend was constantly blowing hot and cold and she felt the weight of adult responsibility from far too young. Her mother died and she had to parent her teenage sister because none of the adults in her life cared enough to help. This responsibility also led to her being forced to quit college for a dead-end job until she is "rescued" into a respectable career at the high school by yet another user. She is annoying and sanctimonious at times, but really I feel sorry for her.

Icantreachthepretzels · 05/09/2019 00:12

She was "saved" from the brink by Xander's love for her

Has everyone heard the fan theory/ analogy about the fallen woman being rescued by the love of a simple carpenter? Xander "Jesus Christ" Lavelle Harris.

I think it's a reach ... Buffy is not the most theologically sophisticated of shows.

YY to everything you said about Willow - she never makes amends for anything she does but is horribly judgey about other people's (in no way comparable) fall from grace.

I do like the bit when she meets Anya in the broken down ruins of the magic box and says 'oh I feel really responsible' and Anya yells, 'you feel really responsible? You are really responsible!'

But even that line shows she really doesn't get that all this destruction is her fault and she can't just hide behind 'it wasn't me - the magic made me do it.'

Buffy, on the other hand, I absolutely love. I think she is always right or justified in everything she does and her friends never deserved her.

sashh · 05/09/2019 02:56

Maybe it's the way my mind works but I thought it was really clear that Willow had been making Tara forget on a regular or semi regular basis.

Dawn says she hates it when they fight as if it's something that has happened a few times and Tara says they 'never' fight,

Treaclepie19 · 05/09/2019 07:59

We've been rewatching too.
It definitely is a bit creepy with the whole angel stalking a teenager issue...
I love the show and I have to say the Spike scenes where he's desperately trying to impress Buffy are just 😍

I had a massive rant last night watching the bit where Riley leaves. Even at Xander persuading Buffy to go after him.
I mean, he pretty much told her it was all her fault and unless she could get over it he was off.
I liked Riley more this rewatch, until that point.

Proudofmynane · 05/09/2019 08:37

I never liked Angel he had a big weird face. Spike on the other hand was gorgeous Grin

Yutes · 05/09/2019 10:15

The Riley using vampires thing is all a euphemism for prostitute use, I always thought?

Looking forward to rewatching with fresh eyes though.

Cassilis · 05/09/2019 10:32

I think it was stronger then a euphemism. He was getting pleasure from it, saying 'harder'.

Dan68 · 05/09/2019 10:57

Oh god this thread has come at the perfect time for me. I recently re-watched all of Bones (which I love, and I think I will always prefer and see DB as Booth, not Angel). But I’ve never watched Angel, but surely I have to go back and re-watch Buffy first. So I did, and dear god I am fully re obsessed with Buffy. Particularly Buffy and Spike. Just Spike, really. What an amazing character development and that man is SEXY. Only in character mind, James Marsters doesn’t float my boat. But Spike is untold levels of depth and character and passion.
So I started watching Angel. I’m still on season one and I’m struggling to get through it. I will persevere, party because I know Spike will be in the last season Grin

Icantreachthepretzels · 05/09/2019 11:52

Season one can be tough going because there's no real storyline and some of the stand alones are ... terrible. Season 2 - doesn't have enough story line to fill the season so we end up in Pylea. and the stuff at the homeless shelter is boring as. Season 3 is good - until the baby gets stolen and then it's just boring. Season 4 ... less said the better. And then Spike arrives so at least season 5 is funny.

Angel is a pretty rough ride overall. But there are some moments of excellence ... I mean, I can't think of any right now but ... I'm sure they're there.

LeahWarburton · 05/09/2019 12:16

Actually, Icantreachthepretzels, I meant what I said. I am genuinely impressed by the thought you put into it, and the detailed way you presented it. And completely agree with you. Moreover, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

Icantreachthepretzels · 05/09/2019 12:23

aw shucks Blush Grin (but I do need a life)

Aderyn19 · 05/09/2019 12:44

I ripped in and out with Angel. The cross over episode (I will remember you) is very good and very sad.
The last episodes (Wesley and Fred in particular) were also very good.

Aderyn19 · 05/09/2019 12:45

Ripped, should have said nipped. Bloody phone!

Venger · 05/09/2019 12:49

The final ever scene of Angel was pretty good, it went out open-ended and very much in the style of the show. The story did continue in graphic novel form, so did Buffy. Dawn became a giant, if I recall.

RabbityMcRabbit · 05/09/2019 12:59

@ThanosSavedMe yes!! Spike is just grrrrr! Love himBlush

mummy2oneandtwo · 05/09/2019 13:12

Gosh I love this thread, I loved Buffy and was always a Bangel fan, although the character of Angel certainly had his flaws!!

David Boreanaz is now in a new show, Seal Team, and I think like him more in this than Bones. Would recommend to any DB fans Grin

picklemepopcorn · 05/09/2019 13:19

I'm watching for the first time, other than the odd episode way back when. I can't get over how young DB looks. His face looks like the skin shrank in the wash. All shiny and polished...

PaxtonsCrown · 05/09/2019 13:32

I've loved reading this thread, I was always very much a Spike girl (although Tony Head is in a class all of his own ever since the Gold Blend ads).
I've never wanted to rewatch in case it doesn't live up to my memory and you're all making me think that's the right choice. But now I'm being sensible I just want to watch...
My teen daughter has just inhaled 10 years of Friends in about two months and thinks it's amazing. It's not the same as watching over 10 years, and then watching repeats. Then repeats of the repeats. She was surprised that I knew all the songs and punchlines.

Icantreachthepretzels · 05/09/2019 13:41

The cross over episode (I will remember you) is very good and very sad.

Oh my god I hate I will remember you! Self indulgent Bangel wank! Now I admit that a lot of my venom comes from it's positioning. It is Doyle's penultimate episode. In the previous episode him and Cordy were making great strides forward in the most adorable romance of all time and then Buffy comes to town and the pair of them are reduced to doing nothing but sitting on a sofa chatting about someone one of them doesn't like and one of them doesn't know. Meanwhile their relationship doesn't get a mention in order to give space for a relationship that is a) over and b) has already had three fucking years!

The reason for the crossover is contrived and stupid. Doyle's vision is of Buffy fighting a vampire ... oh wow, the vampire slayer fighting a vampire, whatever shall she do? The 'danger' in pangs are those ludicrous (and not very P.C) vengeance spirits where Angel does absolutely nothing to change the outcome. Buffy kills the bear without even knowing Angel is there - at most he stops Willow/ Anya from taking a bit of a pummelling. And then Buffy comes to tell him face to face not to see her face to face. Pointless. contrived. piss poor.

She is horrible in the beginning of the episode. She's rightfully angry but the way she's written she comes across as petty and mean. She's needlessly rude about Doyle and Cordy. Buffy - I love you - but fuck off it's their show not yours.

Then fanservice Bangel wank.

And then Angel makes the decision about Buffy's future for her - again -without consulting her - again! (see my previous posts as to why Angel clearly does not love Buffy!) Now Angel is free to decide for himself he wants to be a vampire and fight the good fight - he can make that decision alone. Any reason he wants to do it for himself - he can make that decision alone. But he doesn't do it for him he does it for Buffy - because she will die sooner if he's not a champion (I mean she dies at the end of the next season anyway so ...) and becomes a vampire again to try and keep her safe. That is a decision he should have made with her. And if their relationship was actually worth a damn - worth the histrionics we have to sit through - he would have done. But he didn't and it isn't
And then - and then - having made the decision by himself, instead of keeping quiet and letting her have a blissful last minute together knowing she wasn't going to remember anyway so why upset her - he goes and fucking tells her what he did. that's not out of respect - if any of this was done out of respect, he would have told her before he went. Textually he tells her so he gets a goodbye and gets to share the burden (which is shitty of him, the act of love would be to pretend everything was fine and let her have those final moments together). Extra textually it's done to get SMG sobbing so the bangels can have their fanwank.

Contrived utter bullshit. I love Angel as a character - but he's very difficult to take in this episode. Not only does he show lack of respect to her as a person and a partner in making this decision without her - but he shows a lack of respect for her as a slayer when he decides to go out and kill the mohra demon by himself once he's human. He's letting her sleep and dealing with it himself even though he has no powers and it almost beat him before and it's her job to get up and fight this thing! He thinks he has to prove he can stand on his own two feet now he's human, but he can't in the demon world - that's the entire reason why there are slayers in the first place. But now Buffy's special and he isn't, he can't take it, so he overrides her ability to go out and do her job whilst trying to prove to himself he can do just as good a job as she can. As if being a slayer isn't really that special. He actually pulls a bit of a Riley here - and it's not a good look.

It does a disservice to every character in the show, the story line is paper thin (why is this demon suddenly attacking him? How come we never see any more? what happened to the soldiers of darkness we were promised? Hello - cure for vampirism alert - shouldn't we maybe be saving all these people turned vampires rather than executing them?) - but all anybody remembers is SMG sobbing in the kitchen. Wank wank wank wank wank.

What an utter fucking waste of a Doyle episode.
/rant.

Dan68 · 05/09/2019 14:09

I’ve watched the I Will Remember You episode today- I agree that it’s a bit of twaddle but I think it’s useful in severing the tie between Angel and Buffy- he left at the end of season three in Buffy, and if they hadn’t done an I Will Remember You episode fans would have spent the whole first season of Angel complaining that they had had no Bangel wank and not focusing on Angels new life, I reckon.

Am currently on episode 13 of Angel season one and it’s still a struggle!

Icantreachthepretzels · 05/09/2019 14:13

That's fair enough Dan ... but did they have to eat into Doyle episodes to do it? Wesley's in 101 of the feckers (actually 100 - Alexis Denisof does not appear in the season 5 episode 'Destiny') He has oodles of room to spare for a bit of bangel fanservicing.

Icantreachthepretzels · 05/09/2019 14:21

Wesley's Bangel fanservice

Even the writers knew how terrible this relationship was!