to think Angel was a bit of a skeaze?

[herculepoirot2]

Am frittering away my afternoon re-watching Buffy, which I used to love. And as I’m watching, I’m realising that I am seeing a man who is 250 years old climbing in the window of a 16 year old girl in the middle of the night, and I’m thinking that’s pretty grim. She has teddy bears on her bed.

Xander was a total shit to Anya. Ditching her at the altar was unforgivable and then getting all judgy when she shagged spike who wouldn't? and when she went back to being a demon.

I was all about Spuffy. Didn't like Angel, didn't like that whole narrative. I wish Buffy had been nicer to Spike too. Xander was a shithead.

Xander was a dick all the way through really. He had that crush on Buffy and acted like a knob then he left Anya at the altar. Didn't like him at all on my recent rewatch

Arf at giant hall monitor to describe Riley

I had those drawings too!

They are doing a reboot of Buffy I believe...

I haven't seen the thing with Doyle in - I just see Doyle from Gilmore Girls every time I read it 😂

Watch twilight, that is exactly the same they were nice because they were sparkly, even though the main character is 100s of years old and picked up girls in high school, but because he looks age of a teenager it's all ok.

It's sort of a peado dream look you enough you can do what you want.

Totally fucked up

I haven't seen the thing with Doyle in - I just see Doyle from Gilmore Girls every time I read it

Isn't Doyle from Gilmore Girls Jonathan from Buffy?
Buffyverse Doyle is from Angel - he gives Cordelia her visions.

Great posts Pretzels You really laid out your argument very convincingly!

Angel was creepy and self obsessed, I'm Team Spike all the way.

Season 4 of Angel was 100% a crime against TV. I read they actually had something else planned for that season, but Charisma Carpenter got pregnant so they changed everything to accommodate her pregnancy. It was hideous, season 5 was great though, Harmony as a PA was so hilarious.

'accomodate her pregnancy'/ 'punish Charisma Carpenter for daring to get pregnant by destroying her character and putting her in increasingly uncomfortable.' Potato potarto - but to suffice it say there was a lot of bad blood - and Joss Whedon is a shit of a man.

However the earlier none pregnancy drafts of season 4 was that Cordelia would just be doing all that evil herself sans Jasmine because she was now suffused with a desire for world peace after being a higher power.
What we got was actually better because Cordy was 'only' possessed and not destroyed completely.

That should be 'increasingly uncomfortable positions'

I may have a lifesize cardboard cut out of Angel

It was a leaving gift, honest.

My OH hates it!

Were the 'uncomfortable positions' her having sexy times with Connor? Because that made me dry heave and I was thousands of miles away, watching on TV.

Sex with Connor - a naked sex scene with Angel when she was already reasonably noticeably pregnant, weird dominatrix maternity wear and the time she tongue kissed The Beast - for no reason whatsoever.

I was Team Angel when I was younger, but having recently re-watched Buffy and Angel, Team Spike is where I'm at. There's just so much more character development.

I also really like Cordelia's character growth in the spin off and much prefer Cordy and Angel as a couple.

Speaking of other couples, I quite liked whatshisname wolfboy Oz, and thought Tara was a bore.

I like oz. I like Tara. I can't stand that murdering rapist they go out with and everyone thinks is so fucking cute. She was awful from day one when she tricked Cordelia into deleting her work because she didn't like the way a victim of an attack (Cordy) was talking about the person who attacked her (Buffy) (Yes I know it was a misunderstanding, but Cordy legitimately got pinned up against a wall and had a sharp stick pointed at her throat. She is not out of line to call the girl who did it to her a 'psycho', if you stop and think about it from her perspective) ... so it doesn't really come as a surprise when she's later deleting Tara's memories and fixing her to suit her own needs. Willow has always manipulated the world and the people around her to suit her own world view. She's dangerous and abusive and utterly ruthlessly sociopathic in altering reality to be how she wants it to be and she never ever gets punished.

She's way worse than Xander - whose lowest move is dumping Anya at the altar and then being a dick about it. Doesn't really compare to what Willow gets up to.

Xander was a total shit to Anya. Ditching her at the altar was unforgivable and then getting all judgy when she shagged spikewho wouldn't?and when she went back to being a demon

What is it with every American tv show that every character seems to think that even when they arent together they still have the right to control or know about everyone elses sex lives

It's really quite disturbing

@CrunchyCrumpet I had those pictures too! I definitely had the Anya one with Anyanka in the background.

Spuffy all the way. I wrote a fan fic or two in my time. One was very fluffy about the scooby gang visiting a circus. Buffy made the strong man cry by being much better than him amongst other hilarity

Amazing posts pretzels - totally agree.

Fwiw, Spike was much more interesting than Angel, but Tara was my favourite.

I also have a massive problem with Xander on a rewatch, that boy is truly horrible at times!

Don't Google the actor, unless you want to feel really sad about what he has become

Impressed with your detailed analysis pretzels and totally agree. When I first watched as a teen I was a big fan of buffy, angel and willow. Now I prefer faith, spike and anya. And Cordelia should defo have ended up with Wesley. Tara was annoying and too simpering early on, but she improved over time.

Cordelia shouldn't have ended up with Wesley! They had the worst (funniest) screen kiss ever and got over each other. Besides Wesley was a misogynist friend zoned troll. His entitlement to Fred is breathtaking. He accuses Cordelia of being stupid and when she responds she was the top 10% of her class he says 'what class was that - advanced bosoms?' calling a woman thick and then linking her intelligence to her body type is not the actions of a man who has any respect for women in general or the woman he's talking to in particular. He keeps a woman chained up in his closet. There is no excuse for Wesley and no right thinking woman should touch him with a ten foot pole - certainly not Cordelia!

How weird, I was literally thinking this as I stumbled on to this thread! I’ve started watching it again, part way through season 2 and found myself thinking But if these vampires looked their age, it wouldn’t be romantic, it would be creepy!. I love Buffy, I feel like I grew up with Buffy and the Scooby gang but I think watching it again 20 years later does make you realise that what was held up as feminist back then isn’t what we think of as feminism now.

I enjoyed your analysis Icantreachthepretzels. In initial response to your question I thought ‘Yes! Of course he loves her’ but I guess the answer is ‘Yes and no’. The fact that he latched on to her when she was 15 and the way he behaved does sound like grooming in retrospect.

I watched most of Angel recently but I found the Connor storyline so ridiculous I gave up around then. I also found Fred really irritating! I am still sad about Doyle/Glenn, also Lorne/Andy. Truly sad.

I love most of the characters, although Angel is kind of annoying in retrospect, especially at the beginning where he’s anything but broody, he’s frankly smug! I love the character development of Willow, it’s not an overnight change but seeing her gradually grow up, realise who she is an embrace it is cool. I love to hate Bad Spike but I agree long term he has more depth as a character. Anya is fantastic too.

I didn’t like Firefly (sorry to the fans!) but thought Dollhouse was great! It’s shame it was so short because it was a brilliant concept. It felt like he always knew how to end it and so they brought that ending forwards but it did feel rushed.

Calling @Cavemum because I know you love a Buffy chat - not sure if you’re here under a different name!

I believe Angel believes he loves her. I just don't think he has a very good or healthy concept of what love is.
So many of the characters (and plenty of the storylines) are deeply problematic though. The men in particular are a bad bunch - but then I think that maybe because they are all facets of their creator and ... well, they never stood a chance did they?
Oz is virtually perfect.
Gunn is pretty OK - occasional low level sexist comment (calling men 'ladies' as a way to demean them) but overall pretty stand up.

Lorne is pretty OK - again the occasional comment but nothing too unforgivable. But then he is coded as gay leaning asexual so we don't ever see him engage with women as anything more than a friend (or men - coded gay but not gay) - and even then he is the shoulder to cry on, so it's not his emotions and feelings we're getting. We don't get much of Lorne himself - he's a prop for others.
Doyle is OK - 3 sexist comments (one unforgivable that I put directly on the fact that Joss is disgusting and has no boundaries and so don't hold against the character) but he only lasts nine episodes.

Surprisingly - whilst Connor is awful in pretty much every respect - he isn't actually that problematic with women. He's just very messed up and is being groomed and manipulated (and abused) by evil Cordelia. And any lack of understanding or appropriate boundaries can quite clearly be blamed on being raised in a hell dimension by a psychopath. Actually - all things considered - he adjusts remarkably well to the real world.

But all of those characters are very much the side men - and don't get a lot of screen time.

Xander, Wesley, Angel, Spike, Riley, the nerd troika, Robin Wood's mother complex, the entire edifice of the watcher's council, and Scott fucking Hope on the other hand ... just so much wrong with them. And even the ones that are meant to have things wrong with them - the problems aren't always where the writers think they are!
Even Giles - the way he treats Buffy in season 7 echoes back through the earlier seasons for me and I can't ever see him the way we're supposed to because of his betrayal at the end. And then I think back to season 3 and the way he was drugging her ready for the test and ... yeah, he was always part of the system that groomed little girls into disposable weapons to fight battles then men weren't willing to fight themselves. He might love Buffy as a daughter but he's still allowing that daughter to be used as a weapon in the full knowledge it will bring about her early death. Then he leaves her at her lowest moment because he thinks she's going to lean on him too hard. Not good, Giles.

It's a wonderful show to watch and it's an even better show to dissect but when I actually stop and think 'hang on - what do you actually like about this show?' ... uhm... well ... uh... I like Buffy and I fancy Glenn Quinn ... uhm ... but other than that ... Cordy's quite funny? I don't know...

Oh my god I am Angel. I think I love Buffy but I don't - I'm just obsessed with it in an unhealthy way.