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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think Angel was a bit of a skeaze?

255 replies

herculepoirot2 · 03/09/2019 15:20

Am frittering away my afternoon re-watching Buffy, which I used to love. And as I’m watching, I’m realising that I am seeing a man who is 250 years old climbing in the window of a 16 year old girl in the middle of the night, and I’m thinking that’s pretty grim. She has teddy bears on her bed.

OP posts:
sashh · 04/09/2019 12:54

TheStakeIsNotThePower

Where were you on the short vampire thread?

Spike was great too. The most convincing British accent of any American actor ever.

The guy who played Wesley has a pretty good accent too

livelyredjellybean · 04/09/2019 13:11

Definitely something wrong with me, I absolutely adored (ok, still would!) Angel - but MUCH preferred him as Angelus...!

Aderyn19 · 04/09/2019 13:52

Maybe the appeal is because the characters aren't perfect people - it makes a far fetched concept feel more real.

Icantreachthepretzels · 04/09/2019 14:15

I don't know. Buffy is flawed. Willow is a psychopath hiding behind a fuzzy sweater and Blossom style hat.
The characters who are problematic aren't problematic in ways that make it seem 'real'. And the way they are flawed isn't necessarily what the writers wanted the viewers to see. I can't imagine the purpose behind the BAngel romance was that 20 years later people would be discussing if actually he was a bit of a skeave and whether he was grooming her. He was meant to be the romantic hero. His flaws aren't flaws by design of good writing, they're there because the writers genuinely didn't see or understand them.

The flaws in the good characters make them realistic - Buffy's propensity to be isolationist and push people away is put there by design.
But the problems in the problematic characters just make the show, well, problematic. The main problem being that the incredibly dodgy behaviour is never represented as being problematic. Xander, Willow, Angel they're all given pass after pass when they do terrible things and no one ever mentions it - because the writers just don;t seem to get it's terrible. Even Spike's attempted rape of Buffy is treated as a path to self growth for him whilst her trauma is pushed completely under the carpet and barely mentioned.

The good stuff in Buffy is amazing - but I've long since passed the point where I think the questionable far outstrips the amazing.

woodchuck99 · 04/09/2019 14:28

I always think that the romances between vampires and teenager are sleazy. Not just Buffy but also Vampire Diaries, Twilight and a loads of others. At least Buffy was a lot more mature than a 16 year old would be normally.
I did think Angel was very attractive but a bit easier to watch in the spin off when he worked with people over 20 rather than teenagers.

Aderyn19 · 04/09/2019 14:33

I think we do see Buffy's trauma. But the trouble with dismissing Spike as a rapist is that he isn't a human, with our morals and standards - he is something else and so we can't apply our judgements to him. Spike is a vampire - I'd be more surprised if wasn't also a rapist tbh
It's the same with Twilight (although it's an inferior example). EC isn't human, so won't think and behave like one. So yes, he's a possessive, controlling boyfriend but it's the nature of vampires.

I do feel a little bit weird talking about them as if they are real.

Aderyn19 · 04/09/2019 14:38

Even Willow was controlled by the dark magic. She stopped being her. Or arguably it exacerbated characteristics which were already there. I like that they are flawed even if the flaws are not deliberate and reflect the flaws of the creators of Buffy and Angel.
Xander was the only one with no supernatural 'excuse' for his behaviour.

Icantreachthepretzels · 04/09/2019 15:15

Oh I actually don't hold the attempted rape against Spike as such - it's the handling of it by the writers I don't like. We know Spike has raped other people. He tells us this 'do you know how much blood can drink from a girl before she dies - so she'll still cry when you ... because it;s not fun if they don't cry. Do you know what I've done to girls Dawn's age?' He's a murderer, he's a rapist, he's evil - and I love him as a villain. But when they use his attack on the protagonist as a learning curve for him, use it as the springboard for his redemption and don't actually deal with the true fallout of what he did ... that's a deep problem in the writing.

We see his guilt and shame as he has flashbacks in his crypt, we follow him as he gets his soul, we watch him weep with the horror of what he's done once he has his soul (good god that scene in the church is just cringe inducingly awful) and then he builds a new relationship with Buffy.
Buffy sits on the bathroom floor for an unspecified length of time and then has to go out and defeat Warren. The next morning she's just lalala checking for cameras in the garden when she gets shot. She doesn't mention what happened to her for the rest of the season. We get a whisper of her trauma in the second episode of s7 when Spike hands her the torch and she has a bit of a flashback and flinches. But we actually get far more of Xander and Dawn throwing the rape in her face than we do of her processing it or dealing with it.
Buffy is given no time to process at the end of s6, whilst the whole ending of s6 for Spike is him processing. It's a nothing of a story line for her that goes no where, whereas it is the beginning of Spike's redemption arc.

Spike being evil isn't a character flaw, it's part of who he is as a vampire. It's the treatment of his journey from villain to hero that is ... terrible.

Willow on the other hand is just a bad person. She wasn't under the influence of the dark magicks when she was going to do the delusting spell on her and Xander and not tell him about it. She wasn't under the influence of the dark magicks when she was going to curse Oz to never feel love and happiness again because he had cheated on her (as a werewolf - ignoring the fact she had cheated on him and he had forgiven her whilst she had full control of her faculties.). She wasn't under the influences of dark magicks when she encouraged Dawn into looking up how to resurrect Joyce, despite Tara explaining how awful that was. She wasn't under the influence of dark magicks when she refused to accept that Buffy was dead and insisted on bringing her back and convinced the others to go along with it. (side note - Tara has stated how awful and against nature resurrection is and now she is here a few months later going along with it. We see later that Willow has a lethe's bramble just handily lying on her dresser when she makes Tara forget the argument in the Halloween episode. Funny it was right there - unless she had used it before. Like, say, to make Tara agree to resurrect Buffy). She wasn't even under the influence of the dark magicks when she made the choice to go and absorb all the dark magick in the magic store.
That is who Willow is - a person who doesn't think rules apply to her, doesn't think other people's consent is important, isn't interested in the consequences of her actions and is actually quite drawn to vengeance (as Anya points out D'Hoffryn offered Willow her old job). And that's all fine as a character flaw to make her interesting and real. But the problem is she never pays for any of this. She is never represented as the psychopath she is. She is portrayed as cute, sweet, Willow - she's probably most people's favourite character because of the cute, sweet side of her. She is genuinely awful without it ever being acknowledged in the text - and her bad deeds are waived away by fans as 'Warren deserved it' or 'she was taken over by the dark magick'. No, she is an awful person who towards the end adds murder and rape to her resume and never pays for that. They don't treat her like a murderer afterwards. They don't treat her with the contempt a person who is altering their minds and removing their free will deserves. She's treated like cute, sweet Willow. When Amy actually does call her out on it, it's Amy who is the villain of the episode!

That's why she (among others) are a problem. Not because she's flawed and 'real' but because the flaw isn't acknowledged. Meanwhile how much shit does Buffy take because sometimes she prefers to act alone?

Xander can be truly questionable but the worst he ever really is is entitled male. That's a genuine 'real' flaw and would make him 'realistic' in the way that people seem to like in their characters. It doesn't, though, because in the show it's never acknowledged and he never pays. But he should rank way below Willow on the problemometer ... but in the fandom he is the one that gets ripped apart. Because cute, sweet Willow. And Angel and Spike are hot.

thecatsthecats · 04/09/2019 15:35

It's funny, because Alyson Hannigan also played Lily in HIMYM, who essentially replaces magic with messing with people's lives and a chronic debt problem. It's like she specialises in Disney-eyed twats who get away with far more than they should because they're cute.

NaviSprite · 04/09/2019 15:42

I love Buffy for the nostalgia element and still rewatch it occasionally- but now I’m older and a tad wiser I can see Joss Whedon’s “feminism” as being a bit of a cover for his weird obsession with teenaged girls with superpowers.

When I first heard that he was unsure about casting Amber Benson as Tara because she was too “buxom” (I mean really??) the show lost it’s shine for me. I also love the Angel spin off until we get to the storyline of Conner (little creepy weirdo) that whole storyline - evil god Cordelia was because Charisma Carpenter fell pregnant IRL and he wasn’t happy about it messing with his projected story arcs so did it to punish her in a way (her words not mine!).

But yeah I’ve always found the 200+ year old vampire (usually Male, let’s face it) going for the teen girl, trope very bleh

But then I am currently rewatching Supernatural from season 1 and thinking how cute Jenson Ackles is at the beginning 😂

Aderyn19 · 04/09/2019 15:43

I hadn't actually thought about Willow using magic to make Tara agree to resurrect Buffy. But you are right - she does happen to have all the necessary ingredients handy when she requires them.
I do think Giles holds her to account a bit - he is critical of her long before she goes dark. I suppose her friends are more forgiving because of their history together and people are judged by the company they keep, so not in their own best interests to look too closely into each other's flaws.
You are right though - she does do whatever she wants, puts Dawn at risk (maybe fans don't kick off about that because Dawn was annoying Grin ) stamps all over Tara.
My favourite was Anya. I think she was really interesting and deserved so much more from Xander than she got. He was always talking down to her and they all treated her as a bit weird, when it fact she was no more do than any of them.

Icantreachthepretzels · 04/09/2019 15:54

Xander was dreadful to Anya! not just the leaving her at the altar and then thinking he still had some kind of ownership of her, but the way he talked down to her and corrected her all the time. He's also a massive hypocrite - he gets all mad with Buffy for having relationships with Angel and Spike because they're killers - and then gets engaged to a woman who has, in his own words, 'killed more men than smallpox.' Definitely in a 1000 years she killed more men than Angel and Spike combined (includng one that she cursed to eat himself). And whilst they both feel bad about what they've done once they have souls - Anya doesn't care at all! She's forever telling stories about the good old days and gives no thought to redemption. Xander just ignores all that because it;s convenient.

And I'm just literally noticing now that in the skeazy vampire trope its always a hundreds year old vampire with a young girl, so he has a massive advantage over her in terms of knowledge and experience. It's all about him opening up new worlds to this naive little flower. And yet when a 1000 year old woman starts dating a high school boy, she doesn't know how to fit in, doesn't understand human customs and he is the one with knowledge and experience to guide and train her... and they called this a feminist show!

Icantreachthepretzels · 04/09/2019 15:57

Also - see llyria and Wesley. Ancient powerful demon trapped in a woman's body, asking an ordinary human man to help and guide them. I suppose technically Ilyria isn't female (possibly) but the aesthetic is woman needs man to help her understand the world.

Juells · 04/09/2019 16:03

Amber was an intensely annoying character, I thought.

I lost interest so fast once the Connor character appeared that I've wiped it from my brain and can't even remember who his mother was or what he got up to. That was when I stopped watching, and never went back.

Venger · 04/09/2019 16:28

Oh I actually don't hold the attempted rape against Spike as such - it's the handling of it by the writers I don't like

I think it's very telling that the actor who played Spike has gone on record several times as saying that it was the worst day of his career, both personally and professionally, and that he had to go therapy afterwards. He's also said he has turned down scripts for projects containing scenes of rape and sexual assault as he won't film one again.

WTCT · 04/09/2019 16:34

I once met ASH.

All I asked him was what David Boreanaz was like 😂😂

PlinkPlink · 04/09/2019 16:48

Gosh I've been debating about re-watching this... seems I will see things from a different angle now 🙈

I loved Angel. But drastically fell for Spike when he sacrificed himself at the end. Blubbed my eyes out.

I only bits of the Angel series but I know it gets super complicated with Connor and he irritated the fuck out of me when he came on screen. Whiney little toerag.

geekone · 04/09/2019 17:05

@Icantreachthepretzels oh god she really, really is but I love Lani and have listened to her for years so I will plod on.

FelicisNox · 04/09/2019 17:48

@MillfredTheGreat 😂😂😂

You win best comment. 🙌

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 04/09/2019 18:02

what an absolute sleaze David Boreanaz turned out to be in real life...

Wha.a.a.t?

Sorry - only just come back to this thread.

He cheated on his wife (while she was pregnant, if I recall correctly) with the woman who also had an affair with Tiger Woods. He was also accused of sexual harassment by one of the extras on Bones - unwanted sexual advances, dick pics and so on.

I also remember reading that on set he is something of a diva.

flirtygirl · 04/09/2019 18:06

Thanks op this thread has bought back memories.

JeannieW · 04/09/2019 18:07

I def preferred spike as well

FaithInfinity · 04/09/2019 18:22

Oh I absolutely think that Willow had repeatedly used magic to make Tara forget. The way she so casually did it suggests she’d done it several times before, it’s only this time that Tara realises because of Dawn’s comment. Yes Giles does call her out on it You rank, arrogant amateur! Grin but you’re right, she’s never fully accountable for the choices she made. I guess you’d view it as an addiction, she makes bad choices along the way and eventually she’s in so deep and addicted she ‘can’t help herself’...except there is always a choice and although she recovers from her addiction and starts to use magic for good in the end she’s never shown taking responsibility for her actions under the influence of magic or apologising.

That’s really interesting about James Marsters Venger, he always comes across as a good bloke in interviews/social media.

Thinking about it from the perspective you’re talking about Icant, Faith gets a pretty rough deal too. Numbers wise she’s pretty low in the death toll stakes compared to some of the other characters but I think it’s because she betrayed Buffy and the Scooby gang that they condemn her. I do love her as a character though.

Vivianebrookskoviak · 04/09/2019 19:02

I always preferred Spike tbh.

Angel seemed a bit too smooth looking for me but I was never a big Buffy fan.

Singlebutmarried · 04/09/2019 19:29

Spike for me.

Doyle only did 9 eps as the actor died.

Andy Hallet who played Loren also sadly died.

I’m currently in season 2 of buffy at 40+ Years old and am just trying to watch it as the 16 yo I once was.