To think it is now inevitable that Scotland will become independent?

[amandacarnet]

With brexit and the increasing move to the right wing, I think it is now just a matter of time until Scotland becomes independent.

Pobparker, you can google it. I don’t understand why you doubt that it true, but British Nationalist exceptionalists are having a really hard time facing up to how fecked they are and their diminished place in the world. It just doesn’t sit right.

Standard and Poors address the currency question as do myriad other studies by global experts over the last few years. If the best you can do is try to say Scotland is the only medium sized country on Earth which couldn’t successfully manage its own currency, nobody is listening to that any more.

Similarly, the GERS figures reporting the deficit is viewed more and more with derision in Scotland.

It’s funny how in just the last few years as independence becomes a real prospect that the deficit has gone from being circa an 8% geographical share of the UK’s deficit to being bigger than England’s and over 50% of the UK’s deficit.

It’s not got any credibility among independence voters and that is an ever growing number.

If the figures are correct then it points to grotesque mismanagement of the Scottish economy (reserved) by Westminster. And the GERS figures makes clear that the figures are not representative of an independent Scotland.

Where that fearmongering worked in the past, people just shake their heads now.

Does anyone else thinkore countries will leave the EU once we are out?

Haven't RTFT because I started to and it was bringing back such awful memories I had to stop. Surely the main reason for NOT going independent though, quite apart from having witnessed the shitshow that is brexit and not wanting to replicate it, is that the SNP are a one policy party and completely incapable of actually running the country. Just look at what's happened to education, to health. They spend their whole time banging on about independence at every possible opportunity without actually doing anything at all to improve or even maintain the country. It's like what's happened in Westminster over the last three years - everything has been about Brexit and the country itself has been sidelined. Is wee Nicky suddenly going to find some policies if she achieves her independence dream?

Also, to whoever said Scotland would be one if the richest countries in the world post independence (think maybe it was @zsazsajuju) - genuinely interested to know what this is based on??

@StreetwiseHercules I don’t know where this myth about Switzerland comes from. They most certainly do have border checks, I used to live there and could walk into a supermarket in Germany but would then have to complete a form and get my receipt and shopping bags checked when I wanted to cross back into Switzerland. It’s true they don’t check every car at every crossing point but when I moved home and crossed the border with a van I had to complete paperwork.

Some pathetic arguments being put forward now.

An independent Scotland will have new parties and the SNP is likely to split multiple ways. Try to come up with a better argument against independence other than you don’t like the SNP.

I don’t really know what to say to the post about the Swiss border above. Unreal stuff really.

@StreetwiseHercules haha if that was the only argument against independence it would be great. It is a genuine concern though. Health and education provision in Scotland has been in decline for years and I cannot see how independence is going to change that for the better.

I love Scotland, I want nothing but good things for this country but independence is being sold on a dream and on misguided nationalism - much like Brexit. I also genuinely don't understand people who say Brexit is such a disaster, let's put Scotland through the same thing. Especially with no guarantee from the EU that Scotland would get in.

Anyway I really didn't want to get sucked into this on a Sunday morning, my fault, should have stayed away. I'm going to get on with my day now.

Why do you think you know about this?

I am a Scots lawyer and as part of my training I was required to study constitutional law.

It is not possible for the Scottish Parliament to have a legal referendum on a constitutional issue without recourse to Westminster. It is a reserved matter. Any such referendum would be illegitimate.

That’s why I ask. The polls may show a bump for Indy. What I can’t see is the circumstances in which a) a legal referendum is granted and b) how the SNP would win I in those circumstances

Peasando Breaking news 🙄🙄 - health and education in England is not doing well and has been in decline for many years.

I think streetwise and other nationalists are kidding themselves about what drives voters. They honestly think that people feel betrayed because of 'the vow'. I paid no attention whatsoever to the vow, or to 'promises made'.

I voted no because I don't want the country that I love to be torn apart, not because of the particular politicians in government at the time, the price of oil, the truth about currency etc.

Nats can kid themselves all day long that voters are obsessed with this small print but they'll be disappointed once more when the quiet majority rejects the huge change that would be independence.

Yes it is inevitable.

THe departure of Ruth means Scotland will be totally ruled by SNP. Labour iis dead here.
It comes down to a choice of being ruled by an anti Scottish English government or a chance of re joining Europe.
Independence is our best hope.

“I am a Scots lawyer and as part of my training I was required to study constitutional law.

It is not possible for the Scottish Parliament to have a legal referendum on a constitutional issue without recourse to Westminster. It is a reserved matter. Any such referendum would be illegitimate.”

It is not possible for Scotland to have a legally binding referendum without recourse to Westminster.

Legitimacy is a political matter.

Jesse70 That was a real concern in many countries in the EU. But I think how badly Britain has handled this means that other countries are less likely to leave the EU. Britain has a terrible reputation abroad now and is seen as mishandling the whole thing. If it had been done well, then yes I think other countries would leave the EU.
What is obvious is that no one in government had thought seriously about Ireland when first looking at brexit.
And no I don't think Ireland will reunite. Or if it does, we will have bombing again.

Morriszap, I agree it is not about the vow. For me it was about avoiding the chaos of a split in the union. If there is going to be chaos anyway with brexit, then maybe better to have chaos for something positive?

Interesting to see the lie trotted out that England subsidises Scotland to the tune of £2000 per person. Whether Scotland will be better or worse off financially is very hard to ascertain as both sides exaggerate their figures.

That's already been trotted out @amandacarnet. However, if you deduct the amount Scotland is contributing to HS2 and Trident then I think (don't have the data to hand) we might be in credit.

Hercules is bringing back memories of being hectored, condescended to and accused of pig ignorance five years ago.

But of course, there's no vitriol or division. Just debate.

If you don’t like robust discussion, that’s tough because you are an adult.

Staying in the Union will mean we stay in the EU, you said.

Staying in the Union will mean Scotland leads rather than leaves the UK, you said.

Staying in the Union will mean further devolution to the point of near federalisation, you said.

All lies, we warned you they were lies and instead you said we were the ones who were lying.

Thousands of people are changing their view of their own volition. I’m not interested in being anything other than honest with those who persist in holding Scotland back when faced with the new political landscape.

Divisive? Good. That’s a sight that a democracy still has some health in it.

That’s a complete lie. How many EU countries border Switzerland

God. If I hear one more thing about Switzerland?

I wonder how many people who make these comments have driven to Switzerland and understand what happens there?

Or have they just heard it somewhere...

I don’t really know what to say to the post about the Swiss border above. Unreal stuff really

Have you ever crossed the Swiss border at a major crossing - instead of some of the small road crossings?

Is it totally terrible what happens at the Swiss border, aye?

Yes, some state that Switzerland is in because of its border crossings. 🙄

I didn't vote no because it would keep us in the EU. I was fully aware that, along with which party is in government, could change.

Polls have shown that prior to the brexit vote, only 4% of people thought the EU was one of their top political priorities. Brexit is a fiasco, but I saw no evidence of Scotland cherishing the EU any more than anyone else.

It's only happening because they had a referendum, forcing the issue to the top of the national agenda. Most Scots, like everyone else, are pretty vague on what the EU is or how it functions.

That's the kind of border we would need at major crossings if Scotland was in the EU and England wasn't.

If we were in Schengen, then people could cross at minor crossing points without being checked, There aren't even any border posts at some crossings into Swizerland. You can just drive in and out.

That's exactly what we did last year - thus avoiding the queues at the major crossing point.

What about train travel. There are busy trains travelling the east coast mainline all day long. Would they whizz through regardless or would there be admin of some kind? I've never crossed a border on a train before apart from eurostar which involves a queue and a passport before boarding.

I've never crossed a border on a train before apart from eurostar which involves a queue and a passport before boarding

Same thing. If you have 2 different countries, you need to have control over who comes in and what comes in.