AIBU to think the police were out of order?

[Cailleachian]

DS1 (18) has chronic insomnia. A about 6 month back, he started taking nightwalks as a way of wearing himself out and clearing his mind. Sometimes DS2 (17) keeps him company, Tonight, they went out for a walk about 11pm and about 1/2hour later DS2 came bolting in the door, shouting "Mum, Mum, its the police". My first thought was that one of them had got in a fight or been hurt.

I answered the door and a male and female police officer are standing there with DS1. The man asks to come in, telling me that he is here to charge DS2 with breach of the peace.

It transpires that they were stopped by the woman, who was questioning them about why they were walking about and whether they were from a "unit"(?!) when the man came over and started shouting at them and demanding to search them. DS1 was searched, but when DS2 was searched apparently he kept backing away, at which point the man grabbed his hands and pinned him against a wall. DS2 then swore at him repeatedly. Thoughout being told this DS2 is very upset, keeps interrupting the man over minutiae (and at times I felt like was trying to sort out DS1 and DS2's squabbles), but ultimately both of them agree that this is what happened.

In the end he didnt charge him, but to be honest, I'm a bit outraged that he even considered it. I dont know why my sons were stopped (acting suspiciously, out late at night while under 18, area where breakins happen were all reasons I was given). I dont know why he wasnt able to de-escalate a stop and search without physical aggression. And above all I dont understand why he thought it was a child protection issue, given that the only person that assaulted him in the street at night was the policeman himself.

Go-on Mumsnet, give me your best pearl clutching.

Seems like the male policeman was a bit OTT and made things worse.

My DH tells me that on two occasions, before I knew him, he was stopped in his car by the police "this is a routine police stop"; on one such occasion when he was giving someone a lift home at 2am. Although he knew full well he had nothing to hide, and complied with everything they asked, he remembers the adrenalin kicking in, and that in that situation, he did feel quite threatened.

If the younger DS had never had any experience of the police before, it can feel quite scary, even when you have nothing to hide. An uninformed teenager who has never met the police might believe they have the power to be judge, jury and executioner, so it's possible the younger DS went into "fight or flight" mode, not knowing better.

As for whether it's appropriate for them to walk about at night: that's an interesting question. My DH and I like to walk in the evenings, or even in the small hours if we can't sleep, sometimes together, sometimes individually. Yes, teenagers wandering the streets at night, especially in pairs, can look as if they're up to something. Other age groups might be less conspicuous. But should they refrain from going for a walk at night, because they might be stopped, or get into a fight? After all, there is always an indignant storm (and rightly so) whenever some politician or police officer says "women shouldn't walk on their own at night".

I'm clutching mine at the thought that you consider this was reasonable and respectful behaviour towards the police.

Behaviour in these situations is a two-way process. Police are public servants and don't have the automatic right to shout at people and expect to be respected. These two boys were talking to the female officer, the most the male needed to do was make a polite request that they take their hands out of their pockets.

If I was walking about at night and police randomly stopped me to try and search me I’d laugh at them. Then empty my pockets and tell them to get on with their jobs.

Of course you would.

Why do people post I would have done this when it's obviously absolute nonsense? Happens all the time on here.

@CarolineKate
Sorry, never been on netmums

OP you need to realise that any kind of obstruction of the police is a criminal offence and treated very seriously

If the police are ignored or disrespected, it means lawlessness. You can go to prison for this type of conduct.

www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/public-justice-offences-incorporating-charging-standard

Offences Concerning the Police
Obstructing a Police Officer - section 89(2) Police Act 1996

The offence of obstructing a police officer is committed when a person wilfully obstructs:

a constable in the execution of his duty, or
a person assisting a constable in the execution of the constable's duty.

It is a summary only offence carrying a maximum penalty of one month's imprisonment and/or a level 3 fine.

A person obstructs a constable if he prevents him from carrying out his duties or makes it more difficult for him to do so.

Examples of the type of conduct which may constitute the offence of obstructing a police officer include:

warning a landlord that the police are to investigate after hours drinking;
warning that a police search of premises is to occur;
giving a warning to other motorists of a police speed trap ahead;
a motorist or 'shoplifter' who persists in giving a false name and address;
a witness giving a false name and address;
a partner who falsely claims that he/she was driving at the time of the accident but relents before the breathalyser procedure is undertaken;
an occupier inhibiting the proper execution of a search warrant (if the warrant has been issued under the Misuse of Drugs Act, see also s.23 of that Act);
refusing to admit constables into a house when there is a right of entry under s.4(7) of the road Traffic Act 1988 (arrest for driving etc while unfit through drink or drugs).

I am astonished that people so easily assume that two police officers, experienced enough to work plain clothed would have behaved inappropriately, rather than a 17-year old who even admitted to swearing and being stroppy. It is far more likely that the boy inherited a rather obnoxious and entitled attitude, displayed by the OP. They identified themselves as police officers and the 17-year old refused to cooperate, did not show his hands and behaved very furtively.

THIS

@Stonerosie67 I don't see anti-police sentiments here? You can both have respect for the police and understand they do a very tough job whilst at the same time acknowledge they have faults. Even within the police some officers have reputations of being difficult officers etc. As a government agency they have a lot of power and it's only right they are also held accountable for how they use that power, otherwise we are in dangerous territory.

@SchadenfreudePersonified really?? You mean that police officers are somehow super humans who never make mistakes??

Wow I didn’t know that....

Bear in mind also OP that none of us know what else had gone on that night.

Those officers may have been told to be on the lookout for a couple of young men in similar clothing to your sons. They may have been involved in a serious assault, possibly involving knives.

One of the reasons this country seems to be becoming so lawless is that people are losing respect for the police.

Of course they were just out for a stroll 😂😂😂

The thing is that you come across as white middle class and naive. If you were Black (or Asian) you would probably have taught your sons how to respond to the police. Similarly for most working class families.

However two other things spring to mind. Does DS2 have some kind of SN? If so having some kind of card he carries might help.
And it sounds as if your DSs late night walk takes them through an area known for drug dealers etc. Why did they choose to walk that way?

NotMeAnymoreOrEverAgain - Careful dear. Your stupidity is showing.

Your son behaved like a knob. I would be very unimpressed with his behaviour

What @MrsGarethSouthgate said.

It’s great to see Operation undertaken to prevent crime when they are pushed to the point of mainly being reactive rather than proactive.

I think you should find out why your two sons are really out late at night and stop believing the insomnia excuse (or perhaps there is a good reason they have insomnia). And thank the police for bringing them back. Seriously, your two teenager sons wander the streets at night and you naively believe their excuse? This is the sort of parent who denies all responsibility for their children causing problems on the streets. And even if they aren't, its a pretty unsafe thing for them to do regularly. You don't even seem to have considered this!

oh if course @MollyButton because her son was rude, didn't follow instructions, gave attitude and didn't listen he must have SN

OP your son needs to learn manners and how to behave - the police were just doing their job and if your son had listened to the female officer in the first place the male officer wouldn't have to have got involved. Police can't take risks especially when someone is refusing to take their hands out of their pockets.

"Taking the night air" surely = smoking a spliff!

I’d said YABU until I was there when they stopped one of my SEN students. We were walking together in middle of the day and a police car went past. Being a cocky 15 year old he pulled his hoodie up.So they screeched to a halt and 4 officers jumped out ran over to ask him questions because he was behaving suspiciously. Repeatedly and aggressively. Totally ignored me the responsible adult he was clearly with , lanyard showing.
So it was difficult, as I want my student to respect the police but they were very very intimidating and they seemed to be pressing him to get a reaction. Took all his details. Never having anything to do with the police I was pretty appalled and I now totally see why sections of the community get hacked off.

Questioning him about ‘why pull your hoodie up’ was pointless because he was never going to say ‘oh well that’s because I stole from Tesco’s last night’, or something was he? So it really was just to assert power.

As other pps have said, the walking cause of insomia excuse sounds like something my sister would have come up with as a teenager! And my Mum would have believed her.

Really shocked at the entitled and naive attitudes on this thread. A serving officer has commented and explained yet PP are still criticising the police.
This was not kids, the police identified themselves immediately yet the 17 yr old starts shouting, swearing, refusing to comply, I’m quite surprised he got brought home and not taken to the station.
Teach your son to have some respect and stop behaving like a dick, next time I doubt he’ll get brought home.
Late night walks? Sharing a joint more like 🤣

DS2 bolted in the house when the Police were walking them home, kept taking over the Policeman and DS1 and DS2 were squabbling over the detail (in your house) but agreed the main points so was DS2 exaggerating what happened and being a pain in the arse.

Ah well, a lot of posters here are making sure lawyers will be in work for years to come

YANBU @Cailleachian coming from an American. I’m surprised how much people on this thread trust the police and make excuses for them.

@SallieCat19
I don’t think your being unreasonable at all. Those police officers overstepped the mark, they can’t stop and search people on a hunch, they have to have reasonable belief (based on actual facts not a feeling) that a crime was being committed. Clearly here they just saw two teenagers and decided they were criminals. Yeah maybe your son should have kept his cool but those police officers should not have used their position to intimidate some kids. I would speak to a solicitor and make a complaint about an illegal stop and search.

THIS right here. The cops escalated this beyond what was necessary, especially the male officer who was power tripping. The police in your area are on a slippery slope. I’d file the complaint and make sure you state you were never given a receipt of the incident.

Another police officer here. I work in a high crime area, a lot of it carried out by kids. Many a time I’ve passed kids who may look like they could be up to no good. I’d do exactly what the officer here did - have a chat. Nine times out of ten that would be it. Other times, in chatting to them, their behaviour raises my suspicions.

Obviously some people are nervous about the police and being spoken to, and this may explain their behaviour/discomfort. However backing away, refusing to take hands out of pockets, being confrontational etc. would likely make me think they were carrying something they didn’t want me to see.

As for restraining him, that can be necessary and we are perfectly entitled to use reasonable force to detain someone for a search. This can be to prevent them leaving, for my safety or that of anyone else present.