AIBU to think the police were out of order?

[Cailleachian]

DS1 (18) has chronic insomnia. A about 6 month back, he started taking nightwalks as a way of wearing himself out and clearing his mind. Sometimes DS2 (17) keeps him company, Tonight, they went out for a walk about 11pm and about 1/2hour later DS2 came bolting in the door, shouting "Mum, Mum, its the police". My first thought was that one of them had got in a fight or been hurt.

I answered the door and a male and female police officer are standing there with DS1. The man asks to come in, telling me that he is here to charge DS2 with breach of the peace.

It transpires that they were stopped by the woman, who was questioning them about why they were walking about and whether they were from a "unit"(?!) when the man came over and started shouting at them and demanding to search them. DS1 was searched, but when DS2 was searched apparently he kept backing away, at which point the man grabbed his hands and pinned him against a wall. DS2 then swore at him repeatedly. Thoughout being told this DS2 is very upset, keeps interrupting the man over minutiae (and at times I felt like was trying to sort out DS1 and DS2's squabbles), but ultimately both of them agree that this is what happened.

In the end he didnt charge him, but to be honest, I'm a bit outraged that he even considered it. I dont know why my sons were stopped (acting suspiciously, out late at night while under 18, area where breakins happen were all reasons I was given). I dont know why he wasnt able to de-escalate a stop and search without physical aggression. And above all I dont understand why he thought it was a child protection issue, given that the only person that assaulted him in the street at night was the policeman himself.

Go-on Mumsnet, give me your best pearl clutching.

I can't believe everyone on here blaming a teenager for not taking his hands out of his pockets, but ignoring the fact that he was searched without being given a reason? I respect authority and the police but if I was told by someone not in uniform to empty my pockets I would be hesitant too. Your boys will have learned from this to cooperate and take instruction better in future but I think YANBU and the police could have handled this differently.

oh if course @MollyButton because her son was rude, didn't follow instructions, gave attitude and didn't listen he must have SN

Nope! It's because I do worry that my DC with SN could act inappropriately in a similar situation. That worries me just as much as if I was black and my son was walking home at night.

Personally I think the young men were walking in a dodgy area as: they at first didn't respond to those in the car because they thought they might be offering them drugs.
Which actually indicates that either they were: up to no good or have the street smarts of a two year old.

At 14 I know enough to adapt my route home from Drama club to not walk past a certain Pub which had Prostitutes hanging outside. Surely it is common sense to try to avoid such areas at night, and if you can't to not be surprised if the police are there?

Yes the female police officer seemed calmer and the male one seemed a bit "aggressive" but learning how to cope with the police without escalating things is a life skill. (And even more crucial if you live in an area with more "aggressive" police.)

I haven’t read the full thread but it sounds as though the Policemand shouted once he noticed your sons hands were in his pockets, or when he saw your son put them in.

He possibly shouted to both her your sons hands where he could see them but also to warn his colleague. If your son had a weapon in his pocket then in that moment, until they knew otherwise, his colleague was at risk.

The Police are trying to do a difficult job at a difficult time. If your son had been compliant it would have been over in 5 minutes.

@mamma
The female officer identified herself right off, the 17 yr olds behaviour was very suspicious, he is in the wrong, even back at home he was behaving irrationally, my spider senses say he’s been up to something, why else act like such an arse.

Actually some of us arent naive. I live in west yorkshire and my successfully sued them after they set a family member up. I cant go into detail as its outing.

However, there is mo evidence the police here needlessly escalated this.

Female approached and identified herself.

The male noticed that he had is hands in his pocket, which is potentially very dangerous for the female officer.

It escalated because ds2 decided to be an arse and tried to 'back up', or rather leave.

Once they identified the woman as a police officer, all they had to do was be polite and answer their questions and take their hands out of their pockets.

How people are expecting the police to sort knife crime when they get so upset about 2 teenagers being spoken to, is beyond me.

Again, plain clothes officers were very unlikely to just be patrolling, just for the fun of it. They will be doing it there for a reason.

Police generally speaking don’t want disciplinary hearings, I suspect they did give a reason for the search but maybe with the heightened emotions it wasn’t listened to.

I mean come on. If you saw the in the papers that a female officer had been stabbed or worse. And the Male officer noticed they habd their hands in the pockets, assumed she saw it too but just left her to it. People would be asking what the fuck he was doing. And he would be ripped to shreds. Probably professionally as well.

The female approached as to not intimidate them. His job in the car is to watch from afar. For her safety and to watch their behaviour.

" astonished that people so easily assume that two police officers, experienced enough to work plain clothed would have behaved inappropriately, rather than a 17-year old who even admitted to swearing and being stroppy"

I'd easily believe it.
I'm a criminal defence barrister so am used to police routinely trying to act outsydd their authority or escalate situations when members of the public don't comply with orders of the police that their not obliged to comply with.
And frequently see attempts to justify searches on the basis that someone had refused a "reasonable" request (for example to provide details or id) even though they were not obliged to acceed to that "reasonable request"

Impossible to make any clear call on the ops situation without being there, but the bad behavior of the police described by the boys is certainly plausible to me.

I don't agree with blanket respect for authority if that authority is acting outside of it's powers conferred on it or the bottom of "nothing to hide if you have nothing to fear" as that is what leads to lazy policing and bad practice.

Like I say in this instance the devil is in the detail but on the face of it walking at night is not grounds for reasonable suspicion of an offence. But their manner when engaged by the police may well have given rise to that suspicion.

Other things, as pointed out by pp, would also be highly relevant.
Where they asked their details (no obligation to provide) it were their details demanded (in which case an obligation for the police to ground that demand on law)
Were they asked to be searched or defended and was that demand explained to them and was it lawfully grounded etc.

Not saying either were definitively right or wrong as the boys seem to be equally vague on those points, but I do rail against the idea of blind compliance with police if they are acting as though they have any powers beyond this conferred on them.

But I accept I have the benefit of a just of privileges (white, male, educated etc) which means I have the luxury of contesting these matters without any great fear of reprisal in a way that others don't and would probably advise accordingly if I had teenage sons because of the potential fallout of making an event of police

It sounds like DS2 is a bit 'spirited'.

This whole thing summarises perfectly exactly why our this Blue Line have so much difficulty keeping us safe these days.

We have an unwritten social contract with the police in the UK. They don't run around with guns, and in return we, the public do as we're told.

Of course there are exceptions. This isn't one of them. Your son was in the wrong, and happily, it has ended up with no harm done.

Hopefully, the lesson has been learnt. I just wish it could be extended to everyone that age. The disrespect for all adults from young people today that we all witness every day is making society more dangerous for us all.

And yes, yes, stop bleating, I know not all kids are bad - obviously - but anyone saying things have not changed for the worse in the last 25 years or so either lives in a 6-house village or hasn't been outside.

THIN Blue Line.

My typing is another thing that doesn't seem to get better with the passage of time.

Swearing at a police officer is a very very bad idea. You need to teach your DS some self control. Be grateful he wasn't charged.

I suspect they did give a reason for the search but maybe with the heightened emotions it wasn’t listened to.

This is highly likely. I've not had dealings with the police, but it a medical setting I know that if someone is given bad news, then they don't hear about 90% of what is said to them after that, especially if it related to the risks any surgery that they might need - that's why we always followed up with a letter outlining everything they'd been told and explaining everything so they could give informed consent (plus - you'd be amazed at the number of people who have huge abdominal surgeries and then turn round and say "Nobody told me I'd have a scar!" - Well, yes, actually, the specialist told you just that, and said how big it would be and exactly where.

People panic under stress - and others just pick up the bits they want to hear. It's natural.

Another police officer here. I work in a high crime area, a lot of it carried out by kids. Many a time I’ve passed kids who may look like they could be up to no good. I’d do exactly what the officer here did - have a chat.

This ^ OP.

Any chance you could be a more responsible parent and know what your sons actually are up to on the streets that late at night?

Maybe they get their problems with authority from you?

If these were my sons, I would be unhappy they were stopped in the first place, but annoyed they backed away or swore at the police. That is just foolish and not street wise.

Personally I think the young men were walking in a dodgy area as: they at first didn't respond to those in the car because they thought they might be offering them drugs.
Which actually indicates that either they were: up to no good or have the street smarts of a two year old

I've walked in plenty of dodgy areas at 10/11pm at night, sometimes it's not possibly to avoid them & I would be very wary of a car approaching me at any time. I have never ever been up to no good.

I’ll repeat I would not have complied with a request from a plain clothes officer in an unmarked police car whether or not they had identified themselves. It’s not difficult to forge ID & I would have refused to comply on that basis.

I’m astounded by the naivety to go along blindly with what the police have demanded without any reasonable evidence to stop & search at 11pm.

@Jesaminecollins
He noticed a police car following him which then pulled him over and said he had been swerving all over the road (completely untrue)

Of course you were there, in the back seat, with video footage so you know it to be untrue 🤷🏼‍♀️

I’d be mortified if my child swore at a police officer who was merely trying to do their job... Just completely unnecessary.

Unfortunately young boys wandering the streets alone at night can mean they are up to no good, the police had grounds to stop and ask what they were doing at such an hour. It’s usually drug dealing, let’s face it.

Yes it's exactly why I consider myself street smart that I would be wary of an approaching car, not necessarily trust someone who says they are the police if plain clothed & not blindly trust the police if they are in uniform.

Sounds like ALL the kerfuffle could have been avoided if your son simply had of took his hands out of his pockets.... if he didnt show his hands how were the police to know he didnt have any weapons.

I can't believe everyone on here blaming a teenager for not taking his hands out of his pockets, but ignoring the fact that he was searched without being given a reason?

He was searched because he was behaving suspiciously by refusing to take his hands out of his pockets!

We have an unwritten social contract with the police in the UK. They don't run around with guns, and in return we, the public do as we're told.

Nope, general threat of arming police officers is not how policing by consent works.

The police have very specific rules governing when stop and search and requests for ID are lawful. Any majority black community in the UK will have a whole list of examples of where the police have exceeded their powers in this regard - it is routine procedure almost.

The police need reasonable grounds for a stop and search. Waking around whilst young or of an ethnic minority is not reasonable grounds.

Your sons sound like entitled brats, and you're enabling them.

Why are you going on about whether the male officer 'showed his card' when he should have done?

A female officer identified herself and confronted your sons.

The male officer shouted from the car that son 2 needed to get his hands out of his pockets - this is for the female officer's safety, FFS!

And your answer to this is to find fault with the police doing what they are paid to do, which most certainly involves stopping and searching suspicious people like your sons!

You, and they, are lucky that they were brought home and not bundled into the back of a van, taken to the station and other agencies involved in the case of the U18 son.

I really feel for the police when there are parents like you around.

Do people on this thread realise how many young people walk around with knives? The police cannot take any chances. It almost seems like posters think that the police should have known he was a nice middle class boy and wouldn't do such a thing.

It is not ok for the OP's son to be swearing and arguing back with a police officer just like it's not ok for him to be swearing and arguing back with a shop assistant, teacher, paramedic, nurse, librarian or anyone!