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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

BoZo off today to ask Queen to suspend parliament

334 replies

longwayoff · 28/08/2019 10:22

Do we fancy a full on civil war? Have we all gone completely mad? This is democracy? AIBU to say this is several steps too far?

OP posts:
MindyStClaire · 28/08/2019 11:27

Again. The people who say there won't be a civil war - my husband is 35 and grew up in a civil war, in the UK. I know NI is out of sight out of mind, but it really really shouldn't be right now.

frumpety · 28/08/2019 11:27

I guess he has to be seen to be doing everything possible to deliver Brexit, before he revokes.

WaterSheep · 28/08/2019 11:27

I suspect Johnson is going to be off the Christmas card list.

Talking of Christmas, I suspect the Christmas speech will be very interesting this year.

ContinuityError · 28/08/2019 11:29

I miss the old days when the average MNer seemed to have quite a good understanding of history and politics, rather than relying on Twitter soundbites.

The executive is dismissing the legislature to force through its own agenda.

This is not normal, despite No 10 trying to spin it as what happens with a new government.

I think your understanding of what actually comprises a “constitutional crisis” is somewhat lacking.

GirlsBlouse17 · 28/08/2019 11:30

The Queen can't refuse. She has to follow the advice of the Government

EEmother · 28/08/2019 11:31

Someone has an acute case of cromwellitis.
I actually don't think the Queen can refuse a direct request from the prime minister like that - that's the idea of the constitutional monarchy, no?

Chloemol · 28/08/2019 11:31

Maybe if the elected MPs had done their job many months ago, and acted as requested via the referendum we would not be in this position. Whether you are a leader or remainer the referendum said leave, elected MPs can’t then start with their own agenda which is basically what’s happened. They have had three chances to agree a deal and said no, they now can’t start banging on about no deal when they have actually got us in this mess

Chloemol · 28/08/2019 11:32

Leader is leaver

yousawthewholeofthemoon · 28/08/2019 11:33

There is a petition to prevent this

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/269157

Helmetbymidnight · 28/08/2019 11:33

this is huge-

to the person who keeps saying fake news, you sound like an ignorant twat. to the brexiteer who needs this explained to them, ditto. as for the ones who cant see anything beyond their antipathy for corbyn, ditto.

wake up

Helmetbymidnight · 28/08/2019 11:39

Whether you are a leader or remainer the referendum said leave

we were told a deal was easy, millions would go to the nhs, we werent told the economy would plummet our food and meds jeopardised and gfa threatened. who would vote for that? leave ran an illegal lying campaign.

that elected MPs can’t then start with their own agenda which is basically what’s happened.

mps vote according to their conscience that is parliamentary democracy and the reason we're fucked is that people are prepared to screw that.

They have had three chances to agree a deal and said no. boris said no. boris the unelected pm who now wants to shit all over our democracy to pursue a goal he promised would have less than a million to one chance of happening.

LizzieSiddal · 28/08/2019 11:43

Hopefully the Queen is cognizant of what happened to Charles 1.

Let's hope so.

RedToothBrush · 28/08/2019 11:44

Explanation.

  1. Johnson wants to suspend parliament for a few days. He has to ask the Queen permission to do this.

  2. This puts the Queen in a difficult position as some constitutional experts consider this unconstitutional and undemocratic. HOWEVER this has become so political it is difficult to make that a tangible point of law nor if it was would it necessarily be recognised as being a point of law that was credible.

This is what pure politics is - where legal systems either have no force or not enough credibility to hold weight.

The check and balances of the democratic system have been upset and are no longer functioning. This is a big deal regardless of what your political opinions are. It means that whatever happens is no longer going through the normal channels and thus democracy as we know it, is indeed in crisis. The arguement is merely about who is to blame for this.

  1. As such, even though there are legal challenges in process, it is unlikely that any court would uphold them - partly because there is no alternative tangiable legal path of what should be done and what can be done under these circumstances.

Equally, the Queen whilst she has the power to refuse to prorogue parliament is also unlikely to do so, because it would expose the Crown too much to politics and endanger its future. Doing nothing is also a political act and would expose the Monarchy, however it is easier to spin as being politically neutral. This is particularly true as Johnson has been setting up a narrative of 'Johnson and the people v parliament' as it is, and this is easily extended to 'Johnson and the people v the establishment'.

  1. Parliament would be expected to return around 17th October, which is when the last EU summit is before the 31st October. Johnson would present a Queen's Speech, which parliament would have to vote for. If it doesn't this pass a parliamentary vote this is effectly a Vote of No Confidence in the Government, and we are into full blown Constitutional Crisis.

  2. The Government is supposed to resign in such circumstances. However its so close to 31st October that there is a problem. Calling a General Election immediately would mean parliament to be dissolved. This would prevent the passing of crucial laws essential for either No Deal, a Deal or an extension. So its not really an option regardless of who is in charge.

  3. It is likely you would get Johnson saying he needs to either remain as PM in an emergency (but can't pass anything so is effectively a lame duck) or saying he needs to use the power of the executive without parliamentary approval under the Civil Contigencies Act to prevent loss of life. He could do this for a short number of weeks without needing parliamentary approval. This is compounded by the fact that even with a VoNC Johnson isn't legally obliged to go before 31st October.

  4. But its possible there would be a majority in the Commons who were able to form a new majority government in the interim before 31st October. And would be entitled to ask the Queen to do so.

  5. The trouble is that protocol dictates that the PM is supposed to resign before a new administration is formed and asks the Queen for permission to form government. If we have an alternative government which claims a legitmacy to govern, before 31st October and Johnson refuses to go, we have something of a problem.

It puts the Queen in a position where she has two governments claiming legitmacy. Which sparks the same narrative as above for the Monarchy about political involvement.

  1. A General Election, does solve the above crisis, but it would be impossible to have one BEFORE 31st October.

  2. We also can only have an extension to article 50 if the UK government asks for one. This is a bit of an issue if we have two governments. Who would the EU recognise as our government? And legally they can't extend it unilaterally even if they wanted to.

Thus the ability to extend a50 becomes somewhat close to impossible for them.

  1. Potentially having two governments claiming legitamacy is the stuff of civil wars. Certainly civil unrest is a very high possibility.

Civil unrest in a no deal situation is possible anyway. It means that any unrest might be due to no deal but also could be blamed on the constitutional crisis too.

It is an unholy mess, and looks like its one which is increasingly likely to actually play out, one way or another.

corythatwas · 28/08/2019 11:44

Again. The people who say there won't be a civil war - my husband is 35 and grew up in a civil war, in the UK. I know NI is out of sight out of mind, but it really really shouldn't be right now.

Usernumbers1234 · 28/08/2019 11:47

Civil war lol.

You’ve seen the pro-Europe protesters. All they need to do is stop the supply of quinoa and starve them out, that’s not a rioting crowd. Hold a second referendum and that’s when you’ll see rioting and civil unrest. And I say that as someone who voted remain.

Usernumbers1234 · 28/08/2019 11:49

@corythatwas

Again. Don’t compare the Ni situation to this, if you think the Europe campaigners are more than 5% as committed to the cause as both sides were in NI then you are deeply naive and believing what you hear in your echo chambers on social media.

MindyStClaire · 28/08/2019 11:49

Going to repeat myself yet again @Usernumbers1234 .

Again. The people who say there won't be a civil war - my husband is 35 and grew up in a civil war, in the UK. I know NI is out of sight out of mind, but it really really shouldn't be right now.

MindyStClaire · 28/08/2019 11:51

@Usernumbers1234 no deal means breaking the GFA and thus a huge chance of the Troubles resuming.

That is a civil war in the UK. It might not be in your part of the UK, but it is civil war in the UK.

Today's move makes no deal more likely, and so there is a chance (a much bigger chance than I for one would like) that it will directly contribute to a civil war.

Helmetbymidnight · 28/08/2019 11:52

You’ve seen the pro-Europe protesters. All they need to do is stop the supply of quinoa and starve them out, that’s not a rioting crowd

i dont get how you think thats either true or funny.

bellainthemiddle · 28/08/2019 11:52

This has just gone on for too long, it's too much! And unfortunately, I think BoJo is very far from being an idiot...

BoJo is a manipulative schemer
Cummings is an anarchistic, deranged manipulative schemer
Priti Patel is vindictive
Dominic Raab is a Brexit automaton
Jeremy Corbyn is incompetent and somebody / something is playing him
Swinson is a bit of a lightweight
Anna Soubry is kind of crackers, but also spot-on at the same time.

How can this be? If people were sane, we could have had some nice, harmless chap like Ed Miliband for PM. He could be sitting in Number 10 being decent and ineffectual, making a mess of himself with a bacon sandwich, at this very moment.

Tellmetruth4 · 28/08/2019 11:54
  1. I despise Corbyn but he is not the one trying to trample over parliamentary sovereignty.
  1. This is a parliamentary democracy. I voted for my MP to have a voice. This is against our democracy.
Usernumbers1234 · 28/08/2019 11:55

@mindy
Going to repeat myself again.

If you honestly thing pro europe and anti Europe campaigners are as committed to the cause as both sides of the NI crisis then you are deeply naive. That had 100s of years of historical and religious factors at play, this is the removal of 40 years of trade relationships, people just don’t care anywhere near as much.

longwayoff · 28/08/2019 11:55

I'm beginning to think it would be very helpful for the EU to expel UK. Yet another swivel for Leaders - how dare Johnny Foreigner do this to us?

OP posts:
SansaSnark · 28/08/2019 12:00

I disagree that it will be brexiters who riot - they said there would be riots in March and none materialised. Extinction rebellion have caused more chaos than brexiteers.

The people opposed to this won't just be remainers. This is fundamentally undemocratic and it's also tanking the pound.

And polls show the majority of leavers don't want no deal by any means necessary.

Personally, I don't think there will be civil unrest until after we crash out of the EU but when people are unemployed and hungry, they will have nothing left to lose. Certainly there will be a massive increase in crime.

I have been scared of no deal for a long time but now I am truly scared of my own government - and I think lots of people feel the same as me.

fedup21 · 28/08/2019 12:00

BBC news saying if BJ asks for it to happen, the Queen will agree.

Really?!

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