to dislike Extinction Rebellion

[Azeema]

I live in farming village. We are getting in harvest.
But today on village green extinction rebellion has decided to have a party with drums, loud music and a megaphone. Green is right opposite care home for elderly.
I asked them, who are you protesting? There are no corporations here. Everyone is aware of environment as we grow your food.
They have been very rude, refusing to turn down noise despite disabled residents with migraines suffering.
They made me very upset talking about how England could grow own food and have lower footprint if not so many people (I’m an immigrant) looking at me like I should leave country.

that we need to take fast and radical action

I don’t dispute either the findings of the IPCC nor the need to take action. The problem is that the actions I personally can take - turning vegan, not flying, cycling to work, voting Green - are neither fast nor radical. No individual can make a difference in this - unless they are in the position to make decisions on behalf of us all... unfortunately our representatives in the UK are somewhat tied up with Brexit. And tied as they are to short term, popularity contest politics, they are not going to make any fast or radical changes on our behalf.

Our current political system cannot deliver what XR demands.

I'm too busy worrying about No Deal Brexit and food and medicine shortages at present.

XR is not about trying to bully or coerse people into doings things.

Okay, but what IS it about? What measurable aims does it have?

History is repeating itself. Remember Occupy London? There were a few months where it was headline news, everyone talking about it, loads joining in. Just like XR. It had our attention and we asked okay, what do you want from the government? They came out with woolly nonsense. Everybody realised they didn't know what they were talking about and the whole thing quietly and swiftly fizzled into oblivion.

XR is mirroring the first half of that story exactly. It needs some concrete, achievable aims to avoid being history by 2020.

How did ER get to this rural location?
Where are the clothes on their back made?
Where are their phones made?
Where are their loud hailers made?

Why do they think this location is going to have a positive impact on their campaign?

Like any group/organisation that reaches large numbers, it has become very different depending on the individuals and situation.

I'm so sorry you met rude ones.
I myself have met rude ones and nice ones, its variable.

Overall I like the protesting against government vibe. But sounds more than dumb to protest in your peaceful village.

God this thread is depressing.

To me ER is the one chink of light in the darkness: people who actually understand the horror and the disaster that is climate change and are trying passionately to raise public awareness.

Our children and our children’s children are going to live terrible lives and die horribly unless governments act. Bleating that you ride your bike everywhere and don’t drop litter is not going to save us. Getting our government to act and to try and put pressure on other governments to act is our only chance.

Sadly I suspect it is all far too little too late.

qualcheckbot - yy - totally agree re litter picking! OK, they may say it's outside their scope (of causing disruption for climate etc) but it would a) show there is more to environmental concern than climate change alone, b) show that they have regard for others' concerns when they are stressing their own concern to everyone else and c) show them in a "productive" light rather than a purely disruptive one. To be fair - i'm sure many people involved in XR (like morningbird who actually seems pretty reasonable!) would also do this in their "own" time - but i think it would be good to have the name of XR put to one.

Re the 'rude wankers" not being representative of XR as a whole (like in flamingnora's post) - I understand this, and that it must be difficult to control who "speaks" for the organisation given their non-centralised structure. However, they do have a name, and a website and a set of principles that everyone involved needs to adhere to, so they do have some control - and basically, they need people to be rude and encourage it, so shouldn't be surprised they will attract more than their fair share of rude wankers. It's the height of rudeness to refuse to move to let buses/ ambulances or whatever through a roadblock; to refuse to move when a police officer asks you; or to make noise when people have asked you not to. Just saying "oh, they don't speak for us" whenever someone brings up some unsanctioned rudeness (or racism, or violence or whatever) that someone involved in a protest has done isn't really good enough. There should really be more accountability and safeguarding to ensure they are not part of the message they put across (c.f. Labour Party and anti-semitism...). Just passing over it as "well, overall we're for the greater good so it doesn't really matter in the big picture" is a bit of a cop out.

morningbird I definitely do appreciate you (and others!) putting forward your view. I agree with you that XR may well be more respected if there were actual, believable pragmatic targets or demands. The IPCC (and committee on climate change - CCC) have suggested that in order to meet the 1.5oC max global temperature rise, the UK needs to roughly halve our carbon emissions by 2030, and reach net zero by 2050. The CCC has set forward a target for meeting that in a UK context, and the UK government have committed to that. So i think XR would be better at "gatekeeping' that commitment than insisting that nothing has been done and demanding that we instead meet net zero by 2025 (and yes, I personally have doubts that the current government will do too much towards that target, given their current shenanigans - so some pretty serious gatekeeping will be needed). I hope to do some of that in my own way (partly through my job) and i have no objection to XR doing it in their own way, as long as they accept that theirs is not the only right way, and their rights to protest do not trump others' rights to go about their life and business.

I am glad that we live in a country where protest is allowed and where politicians and organisations do (sometimes) listen to protest (to a certain extent) and adapt policy and operations to address concerns. But i do worry that where that right to protest is used without consideration for others, that we risk losing some of those rights. Which I think is sad and dangerous, but I can see it becoming necessary.

TinklyLittleLaugh and don’t drop litter is not going to save us.

I didn't say I didn't drop litter (although I don't.)

I said I pick up other people's litter. In my spare time. On the road verges near my home and in a couple of local picnic spots. Its horrible, your hands get dirty.

If you dm me your area, I'll try and organise a litter pick for you.

I actually think I could do something here. I could try and organise national litter picks. I don't "do" mass marches but I don't feel I should be belittled because I actually do something useful.

Someone has to do something. Its such a mess out there. Its easy to do, free and it helps something that is not only really harmful to the environment, recycles plastics and other waste and stops them harming wildlife.

Qual. Litter is disgusting I agree. And picking it up is commendable. It’s not going to save us. Riding your bike is commendable. Being vegan is commendable. Limiting yourself to one child. All commendable. All less than a drop in the ocean. All not going to save us.

We need our government and other governments to act.

We need our government and other governments to act.

This is like Groundhog Day.

What do you actually want “our government and other governments” to DO? Please be specific.

Azeema, I am sorry you had an unpleasant experience. Those people were completely out of order speaking to you like that. And, for what it is worth, completely off XR message. XR is very concerned with climate justice and the effects of climate breakdown in the global south. XR is also working hard to promote diversity and equal representation in its ranks. There is a real and urgent awareness within XR that, while many in the UK (and worse still in my home country) take a "Let's wait and see if it actually happens before we think of acting or changing anything significantly..." approach (many in my home country are expectantly rubbing their hands together, waiting for warmer summers ), the effects of global heating is already displacing and causing untold suffering to people in other parts of the world, inhabited predominantly by people with brown skin, that XR is acting now, internationally, on behalf of a global population.
And those who trot out the trope "But what about China?!", ask me that again when you no longer contribute to firing up the fossil fuel monster which is Chinese manufacturing of all manner of cheap Chinese consumer goods. We are so lucky to be able to carry out mass-participation civil disobedience without fear of serious reprisals in the UK. XR here in the UK is concerned with trying to get the UK government to concede decision making about the climate emergency to a randomly selected Citizens' Assembly as part of a democratic process. This would granted be a much tougher gig for Chinese citizens, campaigning in China.
So many points I wanted to respond to, but I do think that many of the questions and unclarities on this thread would be easiest answered by a quick google of XR's excellent, informative website.
And a wave to fellow supporters.

I think disliking the entire movement based on one small protest is unreasonable, yes
Its not one small protest though is it?
They have started issues in the UK
Started issues in Melbourne and brisbane plus many rural farms
Seems that its common behavior from their protests and NOT just a one off

This all feels too trollish on here
sorry you dont like hearing the bad about XR but this is what the majority see when they get their faces on TV or block someones road to work or healthcare.
And reality is in Aus they are having laws made against them and their style of protest.

why don't they target China
they dont have the balls too, they acted like that in china, they would see jail, be shot with tear gas and bean bags

* XR's excellent, informative website.*
thats a joke right
my nephew could put together a more professional looking site

What do you actually want “our government and other governments” to DO? Please be specific.

Well raising a huge amount of money through various new and increased taxes would be a start. Raising corporation tax, fuel surcharges, aviation taxes increasing hugely, etc.

To pay for the creation of fully integrated, sustainable public transport systems in and between all major towns and villages.

Money could also be put into removing older petrol / diesel cars from the road, subsidising their replacement with other forms of transport.

Change planning laws to prevent the development of any new build housing unless it is easily linked to said public transport system. Needless to say, the construction of individual detached houses based on individual car transport would cease immediately: resource-efficient, high density easily-accessed housing only.

Basically, to put the climate change impact of every decision at the top of the list of priorities- above any economic and social benefits.

These are off the top of my head, not carefully worked out plans. The actual steps that need to be taken are probably even more extreme. Sound like real vote-winners, yes?

The government has the power to do many things, make laws, raise taxes etc: if they put it in their manifesto, win an election and thus have a mandate to implement it. But the nature of our political system means they won’t / can’t do anything that threatens or reduces the quality of life of their voters as they won’t win any elections that way. We - the voters - might have an inkling that “the house is on fire” but really it doesn’t currently impact on our lives that much. We hear the fire alarm, somewhere over there, but we’re really comfy here in our lives and we’re not really sure that there is actually a fire (though there are some people making a noise in the street about it) and we’ve just made our tea and sat down to watch Eastenders... we like driving our own cars, we like living in detached houses, we like going on holiday abroad, we like eating food and drinking wine and having hobbies etc. And we aren’t going to vote for any party that proposes to curtail those choices.

XR at climate strike before the summer - RG University campus...

University lecturer (and leading researcher in all things to do with the environment/climate) comes out to offer support and say a few words about climate change.

XR muppets don't know who he is or at best, mistake him for God knows who. Chant at him to go away... he goes away.

Absolute morons.

Basically, to put the climate change impact of every decision at the top of the list of priorities- above any economic and social benefits

So screw the homeless and the poor?
I would never fight, much less vote for less social benifts, people struggle already, why would i vote to make it worse?
I'd prefer our governments fix homelessness, the divide between rich and poor, the inequality.

I don't know anyone who would vote for higher taxes. Liberal aka our torys got in government in Australia on tax cut slogans. The uproar is huge when there is talk of a tax rise or new tax which tells me very few would vote for higher taxes.

Like it or not, with no working economy, there will be no money flowing to even try fix and much less people willing to put environmental issues first.

Tinkly Qual. Litter is disgusting I agree. And picking it up is commendable. It’s not going to save us. Riding your bike is commendable. Being vegan is commendable. Limiting yourself to one child. All commendable. All less than a drop in the ocean. All not going to save us. We need our government and other governments to act.

I'm going to keep saying this. We have to change mindsets. We have to do something as individuals that make a difference every day, not just chant and protest. It is not possible to ethically cull the human population so we have to work with what we have got.

We need people to actually do things, and stop being hypocrites and thinking chanting and cutting and pasting the same stuff on social media sites is enough. What did you do today and yesterday to improve the environment around you?

And Azeema, because I have ignored you until now, I do want to say that I know exactly the attitude and type of comment you experienced. It says a lot about the deficiencies of the person making it and none regarding yours. So many XR supporters are in it for how good it makes them feel, not how good it does to society or the environment.

Well raising a huge amount of money through various new and increased taxes would be a start. Raising corporation tax, fuel surcharges, aviation taxes increasing hugely, etc.

This is what I mean. Do you think deeply about the repercussions for the policies you want to see? Do you think corporations will not pass on their taxes to those who can least afford them by raising prices? And which government is going to float that as a vote winner? Fuel price increases? In what world will people get onside with that?

I think better transport is the only one there that has any credibility. Cetainly we need better transport links and if we want to incentivise people to use cars less then more affordable travel is key. Nationalising the train network makes sense in regards to that, as currently it's been shown that on some long haul train journeys it's actually cheaper to buy a second hand car, fill it up with petrol and drive, which is utterly ridiculous.

I liked them at first, until i found out they're the same brigade who are pushing gender crap and sympathise with communists.

As for raising taxes - do you imagine you can cool down the planet with cash?

Well raising a huge amount of money through various new and increased taxes would be a start.

I just don’t understand this perspective and it’s one of the things that is so weird about the modern environmental movement. They seem to think of themselves as anti-establishment - boldly taking on corporations and speaking truth to the “lying” governments yada yada - while at the same time actively asking those lying governments to tax them more and happily trusting that the money will be spent in the right way, whatever that means.

And apart from that, who the hell actively asks to be taxed more? Not people struggling to make ends meet - the poor, vulnerable and working class. “Oh well then let’s just tax corporations.” Yes, and those corporations - for whole thousands of ordinary people work by the way - will pass the costs on to the consumer, so poorer people lose out yet again. But hat doesn’t seem to matter to middle class environmentalists.

I’ll say it again - these problems are massively complex, and will not be resolved by asking the government to tax us more and expecting them to sort everything out. This is the perspective of a child needing mummy and daddy to make everything better, but for these deeply complex problems we all need to have a mature, measured and balanced outlook on life. The XR protesters utterly lack this and it is losing them support.

These are off the top of my head, not carefully worked out plans. The actual steps that need to be taken are probably even more extreme.

Yes, the environmental protest movement never seems to have carefully worked out plans that take into account a wide variety of different perspectives and a sensible way of carrying our plans that minimises the impact on ordinary people. They have vague, overarching goals that usually amount to “somebody needs to do something”. The “actual steps” are always someone else’s problem to figure out.

They have vague, overarching goals that usually amount to “somebody needs to do something”. The “actual steps” are always someone else’s problem to figure out

Obviously I can't speak for them all, but every ER activist I've ever met would probably struggle with formulating anything but the route to the next jolly - and FWIW I've met a lot as at one time I mistakenly paid them the compliment of trying to take them seriously

They don't seem to have worked out either that the opportunity to create exciting new taxes and laws is precisely why the issue appeals to government … or that the money, once raised, would most likely be frittered away on projects other than theirs

Though it might not sound that way, I'm actually a supporter of lawful, thoughtful protest; it's just a shame that so many ER protesters appear to be neither

XR critics: Look at all those demonstrators. Even if they spent 2 weeks walking to London from Cornwall, they must have walked on roads! They wear shoes and clothes! Hypocrites!

Also XR critics: They should travel thousands of miles to China to protest there.

And by the way, at the last school strike I went on (not XR but similar aims), the young people took litter-pickers and picked up litter on the march.

I don’t think they’re hypocrites, actually, or if they are I don’t really care. Most of us are hypocrites to some extent or other. I think a lot of these protestors are genuinely worried and want to do something about what they perceive to be a genuine and imminent danger.

My main issue with them is that I think their arguments are simplistic and utterly unsophisticated. There is no acknowledgement of the deep complexity of these issues. They think they’re fighting against the establishment, but they argue for increased government control at every step of the way. They think they’re standing up for ordinary people, but they call for increased taxes and restricting freedom. They haven’t read around the debate, they haven’t tried to understand other perspectives and they haven’t really thought through through the consequences of proposed policies. It is an immature, juvenile approach to a very complicated problem.

They dont understand the cycle of poverty.